E84 - Police On Police

We are proud to have Ahmed Hassan back co-hosting with us, and to be a platform for these important voices. We put together a panel of California cops - a black female police officer, a white female police officer, and a black male police officer - to discuss what they’ve seen and what they know from their experiences in law enforcement. You’ll hear why they chose this career and their thoughts on brutality, protests, and defunding the police. You’ll learn their insights into quotas, racial profiling, sundowning laws, the code of silence, and what is really happening in the station and on the streets in their profession. How do the ‘bad apples’ make it onto the force and is this issue as prevalent as we’re seeing in the media? This is an eye-opening discussion spanning many years and many perspectives. We came out of it with a new viewpoint and wonder if you might too.

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• You can see Ahmed on our Race and HGTV episodes too.

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Tags: police, defunding, riots, protests, racial profiling, race, black, white, cops, brutality, black lives matter, blue lives matter, quotas, sundowning, George Floydm, Breonna Taylor, diversity

TRANSCRIPT (EDITS IN PROGRESS):

Police On Police

00:00:00 - 00:05:05

Hello, you've reached episode eighty four, season three. Today we have Ahmed Hassan back on. He is our buddy. You heard him on the race episode, you heard him on the HGTV episode. He is a former host of Yard Crashers and he's the best. We put together this panel of police officers from all over California. So please bear with us as the quality of our Zoom call was a little glitchy But we hope you'll stick with it. Thank you to our newest patrons Alexandr and Jodie. We love you. Thank you so much for your support. Welcome to the family. And Kristy, we appreciate your support so much as well. If you don't want to hear commercials go to Patreon.com/mouseandweens to get these episodes ad-free as well as bonus content, outtakes, we have swag we'll send you, a welcome gift and you'll get shouts on our episodes. We also want your input. So meet us over there, join the family, and we look forward to having you. So let's get started. Everything you hear today we'll be on MouseAndWeens.com, and we hope you enjoy the show.

My name is Ahmed Hassan. I'm friends with Julianne since I was probably seventeen, eighteen years old. And I've known her sister for just about as long. And happens to be my aunt. And _ is a good buddy of mine's father - technically his stepfather 'cause my buddy's white and _ is obviously not white. And I thought that these two plus _ would be great additions to a podcast where we get to basically learn a little bit and hear some stories around today's current affairs, affecting People Of Color, on police brutality, and the whole country being sort of in a racial tizzy. And I said we should talk to folks that actually work in law enforcement because it's not often you get to hear from folks in law enforcement. Law enforcement causes people to work that chain of command and unless they're at the top of the chain of command, you don't necessarily hear from everyday folks that have worked and or do work in law enforcement. So that was sort of how the ladies and I came up with it. Let's do that as a podcast. And I'm kind of glad that it is only this many folks because the more people on here the more complicated it is to actually discussion.

It's true. So I'm Joelle. I'm Mouse. Welcome everybody to Mouse and Weens. I'm the big sister one, Joelle, down in San Diego. And I'm Weens. I am the other half of the podcast - Julianne - in Los Angeles. Happy to be here. I'm retired police from the East Bay San Francisco Bay area. I'm Ahmed's aunt and I am retired law enforcement in Los Angeles County, still currently working in law enforcement. And I'm from northern California, also retired law enforcement ... San Francisco. I'll try to move to another location. See that Nelson

Yeah maybe well, like I met said we're we're just thrilled to have you guys here. We appreciate you being here and taking time out of your schedule I. Know. We're all in various states of work not work in retirement and all sorts of things but Julianne and I put together some quick questions but this is a good starter when what was it that drew you to becoming a police officer what? What made you become become a cop. You want to start with that since you moved positions and now you qualify who you are. I. Hope this works. Retired law enforcement from the East Bay San Francisco. And I went into law enforcement primarily to help people. It was a simple as that had previous job where I made a lot more money than I did as a con. But I didn't feel I was helping people I wanted to help people especially people of color because even you know because especially in the. Well it looks like we're in the sixties and seventies all over again. But anyway, especially during that time, there were many African Americans in love you could see that culture showed it.

00:05:05 - 00:10:18

You know and so I wanted to join. Be a part of that. Hopefully. Make. A difference. And same with me I pretty much started wanting to help do something in my community. I've always been that type of person to reach out volunteer and help in my community and law enforcement just announced interested in law and there really was no one that I could look to say I want to be like that but. I was always. Talked to respectfulness and mill they're there to help so it just drew me in and I remember seeing Mike The e all also I've ever seen or on a college campus. College and setup boots or you're interested in career opportunities and Jews the first actual email. That I saw, she was Latina, and she ended up actually being my mentor. When I finally did join the force I joined as we suggest you know what? I wanted to do taking the physician in the city that I grew up and It just felt right. Up there for years. And years. and. What do you do now? You said you're still working in it but not yes I still work in one or I've been retired from my department over two years now and then I started out or e on other side as victim advocacy. with the District Attorney's Office did America to training and specialized in. Violence older views which I was in offered a position with the attorney's office. So that's what I currently do now into glass eighteen years. And on still work with police officers do investigations. So work is a criminal investigator is fun. It's. System. Yeah. So boy already between what we've heard from you guys, you guys have seen a lot. Already and then we have how did you get into it? I don't even know your story well, I I happen to be an military at the time man hours over halfway to my retirement. and. I got heavily recruited by department in the city where I was working. and. Military Police but they made it incredibly attractive because working like twenty days out of the month and they will work in four days a week and. look pretty. Nice. It turned out to be great I loved the work of the job and the other thing is I'm. Just as a female. Brothers and no sisters. But my mom was a feminist and very much in the sixties you know women's rights and. And those jobs opened up in my lifetime. I originally wanted to go to west wing, but I couldn't because they didn't allow women. So I felt like you know they got these jobs open for us, my mother's generation and I'm going to take one. And that was pretty of it. Good for you. Dawson. Yet he is kind of a bad ass if anybody wants to know she. She did she had to learn Russian All sorts of crazy stuff she's got stories so. That was fine and I was still in the military you is married to is also retired police officer. So there's double. Double the fun yeah. I remember asking him why he got into it was also to serve the people he said. He said, he really wanted to go into help and it sounds like all of you come from that same spirit. Absolutely. You'll find that most cops I think.

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Hi. I'm Austin Rood. And I'm Phil Rood. And we host "The Picture Show with Austin and Phil Rood". Clever name. Each week we watch a movie in bring our discussion to the Mites you can hear my opinions and Austin's wrong opinions about everything we watch no your the wrong one get out. The Picture Show with Austin and Phil Rood. Download it wherever you get your podcasts.

Eventually do you get disheartened? Are you not allowed to help like you originally thought you could? Is there a lot of red tape or did you feel like you were able to do it? You came into originally due?

00:10:16 - 00:15:01

For me I'll speak real quick. I didn't really get disheartened. There are quotas that's disgusting. Quotas dehumanize humans that part of it I I just didn't like it. I didn't ever get disheartened with it. I loved it. Resent the same with you guys with quotas. Well, yeah. I you know the quotas. Or requirements that it took to. Get out there and to produce the work or do the work your I wasn't. Thrilled about that but it was part of what needed to be done in the majority of Miami Times on patrol working control in trying to push to get to. Those next levels in I. Think the most difficult thing for moon was you're always or at least I had to work crew to do you know that I can do the job just as good if not better. It's a struggle. It's a struggle because you're dealing with people out in streets that don't necessarily light. May Not like you. Have that you have to go within the department and deal that same type of those issues. You know I, did the job of you know to the best of my ability to hide that I had in that I took into work. You know I was there for the community. People that I sir. Yeah I would imagine being female for both of you ladies was that constantly having to prove yourself. As well. And it's funny to listening. No, I almost took a stint in the military. And act. Out of it. You know just prior to signing that document. I guess thinking of what I would have to deal with in go through. Yeah. No carry that way. It's just such a feels like such a good old boys club and there's so much secrecy in quiet everybody's protecting each other. And I mean especially now seeing all the stuff going on police brutality and. The bad apple in the group and then Kinda the whole force is maybe protecting that one person or doesn't want to. Put themselves out there. Do you guys see that going on or did you see that in in what you've dealt with? Like George, Floyd and how people were watching what was going on and it was kind of an unspoken Brotherhood as well to end in. Dane the Crikey had something to say you, WanNa. Think. There's GonNa Change. It's slow very slow change. I see more ranking officers of color today than when I was there. I was a supervisor, the sergeant. and. There is some change. As far as quotas we never had what is what we did was. If our officers weren't making walking stops talking to people getting into the business district. If they weren't doing those things, we would know it because we have radio tapes. We contain when people are working or not until by the amount of reports that they're turning in and You. Know. Traffic quotas no. See, that's the thing that really is no. No. He didn't matter of fact if you didn't work traffic if you didn't work traffic, you don't you don't have traffic waters but the guys that are working traffic that's exactly what they should be doing their job. They're not doing. Job. There's something wrong for the rest of us. Didn't work. we didn't have quotas I tended to make more. Rest. I don't know why but it just seems to be, and so I had the most arrest in that than anybody in the station. But I wasn't setting a quota for myself. You know I wasn't doing it because I needed to make this many at risk. I only did it because it was necessary at the time I needed to go to jail. There was no pressure to get anything done other than a sergeant saying, Hey, look let's hear. It looks like you've taken a Lotta Code seven zero off at the coffee shop or you're stopping here and you stop and you're not getting a lot of work done. I needed to get some work done. And I don't want to have this conversation you know but never. documented.

00:15:01 - 00:20:02

Quotas matter fact against La absolutely and I'm. Pretty. Sure. It's still on the books. It's still against the La it was against the end. This recap on not really quotas but sort of just. Expectations in regularity that is looked at within law enforcement, and that's what I've always heard. Is that the same? Would you agree? out when it comes to quotas, there's a level work I think any department that wants to see their officers doing the work if they're hired to do and that were expected to do and that taxpayers layers payoffs to do if someone's being injured or hurt or someone breaking the law right there under the yeah. You have an expectation the quotas said I know when you talk about this generation of shift tickets. Yeah. We had a traffic enforcement but patrol officers at the time when I first started also was expected to generate a certain number tickets. At one time we were even writing a rape rapier heart to. It's revenue generating munched exactly right and if there is a certain level of execution mattis. Were said well. Every night five days a week you're required between the hours. Of No parking between two hundred six again and in your area your Sosa generate or right one hundred parking tickets night. That's a quota. Generates. Revenue Sin. It's unfortunate with that's a youth rains right? There were ill you go. It's against the law. The Cue word is not used, but there are certain expectations of regularity or normality that are expected. So that's not happening in this conversation around. In you know we're we're it's an expectation. You know how many F is a field interviews Have you stopped in talk to you or to get information? It's a level of work. It's a level of work. You guys sound like a reasonable departments. Mine was generals different departments do things differently like For example, departments that I worked for If you work patrol, you do all your own evidence work. You do your own booking you do your own all year on follow up some departments have jailers you just drop somebody off or they have evidence checks, all kinds of that we're required to do everything, and on top of that, you have quotas, you can't control how many cases you have a day that come in you might have. Four five cases right in a row and you still have to write your ten tickets you know. So you will end up writing tickets and and you required like so many felony cases. So many administrative ticket. So many moving tickets it's just you know that's where I worked. So you're basically looking for. When it might not be there anything. Yeah. You're moving you're getting it. Yeah. Did that ever lead to unnecessary inter? Arrests on that, and do you think that still going on now? Is that part of what is going on in the current Not In my apartment it's it's pretty. Exclusively. It's a wealthy white community. So I can't speak that. I just know that that. Does happen in other departments so. It's just in it way of treating the public like they're not. Humans I mean it's a revenue generating thing. Well now we're talking when you get on the profiles. And was going on. Yeah. It was especially early on and it still does to Yemi. I'm just speaking of white I recognize this what was filing at the time? And now they're talking about. You know what's in the LAPD gang database? Placing People's names on there that actually have no. Reason to be there. Because they're not gang members so I mean was at yeah. A lot of that was. And the thing is from my experience, my personal experience because I've worked in in the city where I grew up, I knew a lot of people who was who are what the most part at you're sociopaths. I think the issue and then. At the time when I was hired I was the third. black female on my department and only the second in working patrol the other black.

00:20:03 - 00:25:06

Was a clerk. Accusation, the there on two black women working patrol time. One Latina in one of email white detective time. And said, listen I'm talking. A, this isn't A. WHO So we're up against what? We're. Having to you know meet up to those expectations. I. Don't know it was good in a bat to it because I knew who I was doing so I guess I really didn't do co-pilot. New Hulu. I gotTa tell you something that was so agree GIS that happened with me. It was I didn't I came from the peninsula, and actually when I went to this department, I was living all over the world and I got recruited heavily by the department that I was not I couldn't believe just it's so different. I feel like was in the wild wild west. And There was actually a lieutenant that we had that have these special projects on Friday and Saturday night they call them, I don't WanNa, stay with the of it because I I somebody might recognize it but I don't WanNa get into a big deal but they actually said. We want you to get all of the blacks and that's not the term they use out of town by sundown. This isn't the bay area in the San Francisco Bay area they have sundown laws in the South But this is just so atrocious and so agreed. It was appalling at the time. Married Jawad Guy I couldn't even believe he said it in enemy. It's just. A different place crazy crazy different place and this is a this is the same time period you're talking about. Any in there was nothing When you look at I mean we have to go back and look at the history. This is happening. The difference now is you know people pull out a video on, you can record this stuff. They you know no, one can do it. And you away with it so much more visit videos there's cameras deny it you can't. You can't hold your eyes to it and it brings me to when I think about. Looking at some of the questions and I know maybe I'm jumping head there was a question. Of. The Rodney King incident and with what happened George Louis and here we are still talking about these same issues these saying Hololens and the way police go into a community white lease also going to minority communities and Police. It's still happy I look back the watts riots. I was five years old watching this on television. My daughter was five years old standing and watching TV during be nine, two riots the Rodney King. Were watching it on TV I. got called in to work. On an emergency call out in our city because these riots and as I'm gearing the I'm watching my daughter's stand in. Watching this, then playoff on TV which back memories of me standing in front of the TV watching the watts riots in ASCII. Wise. So you say it's the emotions everything that goes with it. We standing in the middle of I'm on both sides. Yes I work in law enforcement I take item what I do I work within the community. We risked our lives to walk there in workings, unions and work for people. and. were. Were the uniform. And we work with the bad apples. You know there's there's a handful of people to do this. And they get caught. But it's it's across the board. Now when you went through training, did they tell you look this is GonNa Happen, and if you see one of your co workers, one of your colleagues doing this that and the other this is how we handle it. Never been told that, but I have opened up against. I've I've seen it happen and I have. You know what? This code of silence this and that's why her never felt like I will be in to that law enforcement category because Ryan is right and wrong in. Here's the thing. An officer. Is near to enforce laws. To enforce. If a crime occurs enforce law that have enough evidence that person goes to jail.

00:25:06 - 00:30:01

That's it. The investigation were not judge were not the jury and we are Hampshire not the executioner. Thank you. We hand in UPSHUR, all of us have handle cases. Or been situation. Your adrenaline going on WanNa see justice. But we don't miss out just where there to do the arrests and we have to go through a judicial process. and. I've I've I've been in a lot of situations and my journal ends up and I'm human I'm angry but. You GotTa have control. They don't teach you escalation or do they. They do. But. They don't teach you escalation against your fellow. Out. Because when officers explaining their assuming everyone is a law abiding justice, a law upholding officer. So they're not air to police other officers. They're all there to police the public the. In each other because you're supposed to already know what to do and what not. That there are always are a certain percentage. No matter what you're you're dealing with humans there's always a certain percentage of them run. In just remember were these officers coming from they're coming from the communities they're coming in with whatever their Ideas. Are. About. Society about the WORL- Holly Grew Up, I've done training I trained young officers in and I trained a young white male. From mid. West America. And had never had really any interaction with Mike ords. He was my training. And for him, just his US. We're in an area. Called do a cutlass stops you talk to these young men get their information. And we get back in the car and basically he said this particular area of the city northwest. It's low to mid income to low income. Crime was high crime was very high net airy. And then for him to make a blanket, remarks 's all of this area of northwest gives full of criminals, prostitute, gang members, drug dealers, all this high crime everyone. Everybody's like it's not everybody's yet. I said, why would you say this because crime is jumping up here? I see. So you believe that every person in this area is a criminal. Yes. You're world. We. Get in the car. We drive up the street, go around the block less than a half a mile I stop. And he says, he gets excited. Are we doing a search warrant? Are we doing search warrant here? I looked? I said no I'm going to go in and get my lunch. To meet the people entitled why and I Drove around the block. Yeah you know what? Kids need low. You know they don't even live in this community. They come from outside. So the guys you talked to or your field, US with these little WANNA be drug dealers and gang bangers stayed on the live in this community. From the outside. These are good people here and how to deal with this congregation. Live with us right and they don't WanNa live with no matter of fact, where we stop these guys the apartment owner who own their apartment in worked very hard to keep gang in drugs out of his. Office his property will shot and killed right in front of his apartment building because he was working with. Trying, to clean up. Gangs and the drugs of outside people that were doing this in his apartment building trying to keep up heartbreaking right in front of his building. So, yeah. We gave it extra police search or for this young man to say that everybody collectively. Black and Latinos it was a predominantly Black Latino neighborhood all gang bangers all this crime. How Is that where a young cops come in how much racism is coming from them? Is it mostly weight young men that are? Tab this viewpoint did you see a lot of racism in the force like that? Yes. I do I do especially if you're if that person is not.

00:30:02 - 00:35:03

Open or has had experience with anyone of color and his views his mind is already set. Because of whatever under the way, he understands the world. Is there any training on prejudice to teach you guys? Hey, watch out for the. We had an episode awhile ago about race from different people's viewpoints in someone brought up that we police are taught to fear Blackman's specifically. Is that true is underlying under the surface I didn't have that experience, but that doesn't mean other people don't. But what was so greatest for me was. A few years later after the incident that I mentioned about the Sun Downing. The same people that were in charge of that program him along and or giving race relations training. So me have not a racist. While yes. So. Upside down. Yeah, I mean you have these people and and and like said, you know I don't know that they always come from outside the community, but they're just a certain amount of people thought about it my higher life and I wished I had the answer of how to get rid of this fate. You. Know your children aren't racist. You know children see color somewhere in in the out from the outside or from within inside the own their talk. It's taught. And as far as fear the fear comes from. Just not. Standing. You know and what? What's being said or what they're believing. I, think you're so right in that I mean just whatever your parents are feeding you right? That's little left but the grandparents or uncle media hours your first friends I thought about the entire life. And what's frustrating for me is I have it's not just my brothers but I I really thought very hardly on this my whole life and there are people who are just not the same and I have two brothers for example. So a little Nazis three years different from me they grew up the same parents in the same environment and their little Nazis and they were different as little kids. And they weren't like I mean as a little kid they just were noticeably different and they're they're. Still Different. And I hate them in their awful horrible hateful people and I know you know where to get rid of it but the majority of it I think you're right is hot but there are some people out there that are just like a born Hitler born. Cycle town. Yeah but I also think that comes from what they're being told and what they believe. We have a very diverse family extremely diversity. When you have a cousin right now in his wife they have or adopted children their fair one that they've adopted these children since they were Maine's. So the ones the oldest child, they all have the same mother their mother's white. The oldest child, the father is black. The other two children have a white box. So now they're raising all three of them. So they're they're all, there's all three siblings but have different fathers. So the the the the little youngest boy and sweet kid, and he goes to school, and now he sinkhole by his friends. That you know your mother is the in were. The parents are black. And they have legally adopted all three of them. So now he comes home with this bird. And is calling is mother who raised him and will continue to raise him and be responsible for him and it's he's hearing this word. And because your black I'm white, you're not my mother. But he's this just started since he started. Little School. Low. He's hearing this from the other kid. Being Cheese ease being are obviously now he's seeing this difference. And It. Brought up all this. Racial. Tension in issues in their household nail. But prior to that, he was perfectly okay with identifying. This is my mom this is my dad these are my siblings.

00:35:03 - 00:40:03

Here's my aunt years Mike has it. You know. And now he seemed this color difference. And he's learning from the kids school who are probably bring it from their homes and listening to their parents and and the president. Yeah. Obviously. And now it's The an issue in there now they're dealing with this. In their household. That we have taken a big step forward with what's going on apparent. We read last night that this is the biggest protest movement in the wake. Of George Floyd hundred. Taylor that were out there, and this could be real change finally is their faith in that. Or do we need to wait for the old? Racist Holiday die out. I have hoped but but the protests in the sixties were a lot bigger. And And I saw real change back. Then this is what's really disheartening to as well. This is never over. You can't just get real change out of this protest and this movement and then relaxed and say we got it now it's never over. Before you know it, they'll be back. Racist. The sexist everyone it's never over. because. It has to start from the you know what the protests to their posted always always been there. They've always been big the change. I think. We look at what's going on in a lot of these in our judicial system. In politics. The root of racism his deep. It's the. Stems that are on the circus. Until we get deeper in in when there's the equality economical. Education Education Education and we have a better representation of society at the top. You know. Chain will grow start to see the change and then it's the views of so many people that are there offer if. You still have that girl boy mentality. It said that, yeah. What do you see the? So in the in the police force, do you guys see that like when is the news portraying accurately what's going on or we sense sensationalizing the racist aspect of White Cop verses African American citizen. Do you think what they're portraying accurate though I don't. Yeah. Yeah. Number one, we we need to count the number of. Law Enforcement. Officers. There are and the number of law enforcement incidents that happen happens throughout the country. And if you think about that, I'd like to compare that to how many mistakes doctors may make and how many people have died under the knife. In news travels fast especially. In This Day and age and? I think that. When you really look at it when I really look at it, the incidents are still few. It's Not. Like it was in Jim Crow. The incidents are still few. The other thing is that law enforcement comes from society. And Society is made up of all kinds of people. And I don't think we're ever going used to sit on stress boards in I used to be one of the actors in the stress. World War I did it for years. and. Rental? Battle. Okay When people are going through the process, the hiring process. They go through different steps usually it starts with the The written test once they make it past that, you know an APP probably filters out fifty percent of them Once they get past that they start the background investigation process. They talk to their family, their neighbors they they. Any records that they may have they do NCIS's searches. then. In the oil interview, there's a panel and the panel is usually about four people maybe five thousand recruiters standing in the background. So back then I was younger slimmer. largest shoulders. And I had an intimidating look about me if I wanted to. I was always the bad guy I was a crook. And and there was also a psych psychologist or psychiatrist on the board as well. And that psychiatrists could call cut or.

00:40:04 - 00:45:17

The recruiter would call cut. And so we're going through this. They would give him a scenario. And it's a black guy he's about five, nine or five ten. he's wearing this that and the other is walking east down RPG on Main Street. So when you get the call, you need to stop this guy because this guy is known unknown murder and he has to be stopped. Or whatever the reason is he's a known felon and we need to stop him and find out what he's doing. I walked in. Like a bad S. And so. They would look at me and now this guy, he looks like he's about six three but the dispatcher described as clothing that fits that he's five nine some would just let me go and we found out that they were afraid because of my swagger. And my size and they expected someone shorter. Or some would do what was expected of them and those that did what was expected would come up to me and say, Hello Hello Sir how you doing I'm doing fine. How are you doing officer? I'm doing fine so I just WanNa talk to you a little bit and then I'd say well I don't have time to talk to you. I've got some place to go. And as they try to keep me there, you know I my anger would not show that I'm really starting to get frustrated and angry with them. And with every word I spoke because now I'm getting in their face every word. I spoke I would spray. You know with every s with not with every. There is would black because I'm spraying. Then, they would you try to use their radio and dispatch with comeback. I'm sorry two, atom three to all of their cars are tied up at this time will get you cover as soon as we can, which never happens really I've never had someone then I may cover and true. But that's what we would do in this scenario and we will take them to the brink of where. They would break down. But we wouldn't break them down. We wouldn't go all the way. Some did before we realized that they were and there's been many times when when I would just. Denied talking after sprayed in their face and shoot them out. I would tell them. We'll do something arrest me i. don't care what you do. Arrest me you know and they didn't know what to do because they're untrained I would walk away and as I'm walking away. There was one member on the board that would. In, the direction that I needed the duck in. Because, people have swung at me from behind. Back or people have pointed their finger at me like it was a gun and make that motion. and. Of course, they didn't make it past that interview but we did those things just to try to keep from have been people make the same mistakes that are making today and they've made before you know and then when they go through the academy and even tougher. I think that we're going to get some in society that makes it through and they are going to do the wrong thing. They are gonNA become jaded quicker than many you know I became aware even though. I think it was that said that she knew everybody in the neighborhood I knew a lot of people that I had made contact with later guys at. Me You know I was. Street fights you know before I was a cop. You know I was I was in construction. And I knew a lot of guys and we did things and you know I was to have to begin with. And Many of those guys I took the jail later Many of those guys couldn't believe that I was in law enforcement. It's not you know I can't believe this because I came from the same hood. But I didn't do the things that they did in. But I was able to survive in. I was able to make my way through when it takes. You know because there's always is in her there's always aggressors young men that live in the Hood Black Brown and white you know. have to really be tough to make through the very funny. Those that have that are funny. They make it easy. But those of us that aren't you gotta be tough. So when I went into law enforcement. Yeah I ran into people I ran into people knew there were some cops that I knew that were frustrated especially those from middle to upper middle class. neighborhoods that didn't grow up in the hood they don't they don't understand why they come into law enforcement with a bias. They already think that you know whenever an african-american breaks, the law they described them and they say a black man walking when white people break the law, you don't usually hear them saying Caucasian male on the news and you know the description is never complete when it's when it comes to Caucasian but they do say blackmails.

00:45:18 - 00:50:01

and. So people annoyingly have biases whether they think they do or not whether they want to or not. They have biases. Kurt somebody talking earlier about living in a diverse family I certainly did my grandfather was white. My mother's father was white she halfway and her mother was lack from the islands. My father's mother was half white. And her father was also white. Because those folks back then you know black men didn't marry white women. It was white men that took black women if they want it to you know they had the choice. So my family was diverse and then we grew up being verse my siblings is. my cousins myself We've all had diverse relationships and. Never, had issues. It's only when we get out in the world. And we work with people. That have issues. Oh let's. Let's do some quick ones because. We WanNa gain some insight and we know that this conversation doesn't really have a beginning it's just A. Seemingly. Cyclical conversation. But real quick u-3 that we're in law enforcement or are in law enforcement. A quick thought on defunding the police. Defending police, I would hope that. If they do. They do it wisely you know people are. People are afraid of defunding our troops. I think we should be concerned about defunding law enforcement as well because those people that live in those neighborhoods, we we really need to protect a lot of people that live. Really tough lives crime doesn't happen in my neighborhood and other crime happens in any of yours. It not much least and but in those several of those neighborhoods where law enforcement is really working in doing a lot of work I, think that that any of the money they need. The resources to continue to do the job is done. I agree I. Hope if they do they do a very wisely and really look at. What they're trying to do is to meet defunding police nieces taking money away from. Long courses of agency set choir training. You know I know when I went. I got so much train. Because success with the police, do they're going into to deescalate a going there being because there's knee and it's true counselor. mediator. We do it across the board do other professionals need to come in and help in do that? Yes. We have a program where of lease also control officer was aired with A. We did Corinne Posey back in the late teens own nine. So I think most agencies seem where there's a need or out of the box thinking. Help law enforcement deal with the issues and the Williams. But I also do believe that there has to be some other sensitivity training in a broader mind opening of equal on dealing with race relations. is still is a problem, continues to be a problem. and. I think that's where a lot of training. To go to, but you can't train someone to remove what you know. They think they have to change to think they have to open their minds and be prepared to change. You're not looking at this person call you looking at a human being this is a person. And we'll some. People. WHO To the officers. And I think it goes back to McCain. You have so many really really really good cops the majority by partially h majority of cups are willing to on a daily basis, put their lives before their own life on the line for you. ANY MINUTE And over the years you guys don't see it but all of us have seen. There used to be social service agencies that dealt with people with mental problems in social service problems that aren't they don't exist anymore.

00:50:02 - 00:55:01

basically, your budget cuts and everything else have been removed and police have fallen to the police to do all these jobs that we were. We were not ever really meant to do. So the funding the police, I don't think the answer I think that that takes away from. All the things it I don't see any good coming from that I just don't I. Don't think most people mean it as a punishment. But when you say defend something, you'd better say find something else to take the place of what we're doing. We're doing a whole lot of jobs out there that don't fall under police officer. Jillian and I were watching a bunch of stuff us night and I think it is kind of reallocating assets into other programs like that. So instead of you know completely arming police with the best of the best protective gear, maybe they can downgrade that and put some of the money into more social services or things like that i. think that's what all of these guys are saying but who's WHO's hold me accountability? Yes that's exactly what Ryan and I'm sure it's different in every every area, and then there is also cities have dismantled the police and rebuilt them with. Force enforcement and. Saito some departments need to you don't I mean not all departments are bad either I. Definitely See. Were Full Loyd. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that I cried. It it's obviously. Okay and that department to move or somebody slowly in front of the public. But that would never fly here. Doesn't flow shouldn't Blaine were it should not now. It shouldn't. Everybody that I know that does what I did are upset with what happened. To Cloyd. There's no one that feels good about that So anyway, my number two son is a SWAT team leader. He's a captain with the agency that I used to work with and he's been industries of Oakland. He knows who the peaceful protesters are. He knows who's on the left that are breaking zero definitely are right wing folks taken advantage of those opportunities. Are there anarchists anyway he he called me one day and he was upset with me because I didn't check in on him. and. He's really stressed. The first night out he lost three of his men, and at the same time, it was when the security obser- at the. At the Federal Building? The Twin Towers was shot and killed but He was on that night and the city of Oakland and we were there as mutual aid. The city of Oakland have different practices than we do. So we use less lethal bullock's we use gas, we use the tools that we need and other agencies. Don't their mayors are civilians and they don't understand law enforcement. Really and. I. Don't think that the gear that they have to wear the safety equipment that they use they need it. And I agree I mean trouble you know we I say we even though I've been retired since three we need that stuff I want my son safe. I want my friend safe. You know they're there to protect society and now I don't know who said it but Joel I don't know if the name. Okay Cam you had something to say there are no, I agree with. You know same thing I say we. been retired worthy took years. Because you still have family and friends and people that are or you know in general were officers need to stay safe and do their job. A lot of good. We have a lot of dedicated men and women out there doing the work and to protect it to serve in law enforcement in the military. It's heartbreaking in as he I agreed is a lot of officers said were just brought to tears in watching this. Horrific thing play out. You know you have to think about it. Would you know these are he was? Too we have emotions were not robots. Officers are not robots and then you get a few people out there only can just do whatever they want to do and. EXERCISE THEIR EIGHT IN FEAR Of people of Color people who differ from or feel they have to admit out their own justice and you'RE GONNA Hassle Steve, bad, apples, these groups of really good dedicated officers I've worked with some of the best he. Had My back ipad there's.

00:55:02 - 00:59:15

There's no question. And then you get a handful. One or two of you out there that just filled it they can do whatever they. Do you think that the training needs to be such that The whistle blowers are more protected that. Can money go into that something change their. And it should. The whistle. Want to get change you got to get people out to vote I mean it comes in the top when you when you got a president that, you know, pardons all his friends and breaks the law routinely. It hints people lead by example, and that emboldens the bad people that in society, police work, and everywhere else. I don't know if you saw one meeting that Trump had with the police officers where he told them all don't be so careful when you put them in the backseat of the car, you know with their heads he's basically saying smashed their heads into the car don't don't protect them and It starts from the top in other bad hombres. Right, all the bad guys coming in from everywhere else. It's just yeah, they're emboldened and yet they come out of the woodwork. They're always there. I want to... I want to say something as my last thought. One, thank you offer making time to step out of your roles in law enforcement. I know you've been retired for a while but both the ladies appreciate hearing from you guys. I appreciate it. To view our people of color who do not exercise a racist notion in your day to day life. Ended or what we're calling for fire. Is. Someone does this same wing as a white woman of the other side? So one I appreciate it. Applaud all of you for just how you live your lives. Human beings alone aloneness officers who enforced the law or still enforce the law. One thing I will say on my way out and it makes me sad but I think it's very true is that it is changing. It's changing so slow and we're so sick of still hearing the same that you heard when you were five years old and then watching your daughter do the same thing at five years old which she might still watch her daughter do a third generation. It is changing so slow it's changing extremely slowly. I appreciate everybody on this panel because I know that at least the six of us are doing our own little part. To make a difference. To, listen to somebody to hear the other side of it to come up with a peaceful resolution and I. think that's how it's going to continue to changes each one teach one teach three if you can but at least teach one and I know that the six of us doing that so I think you all. You guys are amazing, protect and serve I. Love It. Thank you so much for being here. We so appreciate you. Yes. Thank you, everybody. Goes. We hope you enjoyed this episode everything from this episode is on MouseAndWeens.com and the video version is on. Youtube. We'd love your feedback. So please consider rating and reviewing us on apple podcasts or pod chaser. Also please share and tell your friends because that is the best way we can grow follow us on all the Socials @MouseAndWeens where we have been posting donation sites and causes that we believe in our private facebook group has behind the scene photos and our patriotic has commercial free episodes. The full unedited episode videos outtakes, Swag and more bonus content. So we hope you become part of the family and join us there. Thank you so much for listening five. and. By. In Bright Dark. Everybody's to. Everybody's sleeps every bodies.