mouse and weens

Hollywood vs housewife sisters fascinated by how people think.  a fun conversational podcast with heart.

Episode 72 - Fool Me Twice with Jules Hannaford

Listen to full episode "Fool Me Twice with Jules Hannaford"

Imagine falling in love on a dating website, becoming involved in a long-distance relationship, and after finally meeting face to face, realizing that you have been catfished by a criminal and are in serious danger? This happened to teacher, author, and podcaster Jules Hannaford. After escaping, she documented this harrowing true crime story with a book and a successful 9-episode podcast called “Fool Me Twice”. We sit down with Jules to find out more in-depth details about her incredible story, learning some exclusive new details of her case never released before! We talk about her feelings around this relationship while she was at the height of it and what happened in the aftermath. Find out why Jules, later burdened with shame, chose to share her story, and learn some important takeaways on how to avoid romance scams and what to do if you find yourself in too deep with a con artist, scammer, or catfisher. We are proud to help deliver this story and to call Jules a friend. Please visit her website to support all her endeavors and join our Facebook Group for more behind the scenes discussions. Thank you!

    Jules Hannaford’s podcast and book “Fool Me Twice” on
    You can also find Jules hosting “Hong Kong Confidential” wherever you listen to podcasts
    Video version of this episode on YouTube

Song Credit: “Chocolate Eyes” acoustic, written by Julianne Eggold, performed by Dan Mahony | Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | Behind the Scenes | Patreon Bonus Episodes


TRANSCRIPTION (in progress):

Fool Me Twice with Jules Hannaford

00:00:01 - 00:05:08
Hello you have reached the Mouse and Weens podcast. Today we're going to be interviewing Jules Hannaford, author and podcast creator of "Fool Me Twice". It is a true crime story that you have to listen to! You'll hear some inside information from her and we ask her lots of questions that you may want to know too so stay tuned. Check our show notes on for all the information and here we go!

Yay! Ok, there she is. All right! Look at the background picture too. How appropriate. Yeah! African! That's cool! Well I'm Joelle.I'm Mouse over here. So, hi! Nice to meet you. Hi! Good to meet you. Thanks for having me.
And I'm the Ween part of the equation. I've got to ask you how you came up with Mouse and Weens? Weens, you want to tell her? I was... Here, I'm talking to my microphone this direction. I was brought home as a nine pound... Or what was I? Eleven pounds, nine ounces... a very large baby. So I looked like a little wiener rolled up. A little swaddled wiener.
So have you been called that since you were a baby?
Yes, and then it just stuck. It was little Wiener and Weens. And it's a terrible story!
And then I was, I guess the story goes I was a baby and I had no teeth. Then I chewed through a cheese package and I became The Mouse. And then it kind of fit my shy little girl personality too. So now I'm stuck with it and that's what our mom calls us. She calls her Squirrel and then I'm Mouse. But our dad said Weens so that's..
So cool.
But then she goes by Jules so this is going to be kind of tricky.
Jules Squared!
So you're right now sitting where exactly in the world?
So I'm sitting in Hong Kong in the morning while it's night time where you guys are and I'm actually on Chinese New Year holiday so that's why I'm able to do this because normally I'm working as a teacher right now.
Are you being affected by this big global Shutdown and travel and everything. I'm not luckily I was just staying here anyway but yeah I think a lot of people are starting to get affected and everyone sort of in panic mode. Apparently all the mosques have been sold out in Hong Kong. And everyone's walking around with masks on but I feel like we. I live in a little island off Hong Kong. It's a Chinese fishing village with no cars and you have to walk everywhere and it's quite small so I think we we feel safe here from from protests and viruses. Okay very good. Well that's nice. You can be kind of insulated and but with that comes kind of the the the whole story of your book and your podcast. Probably Right. You're kind of off in your own little world so yeah very difficult to meet men so I got online dating and then the whole story started to evolve. Say yes I mean. That's definitely part of it and being a six six foot tall woman in Hong Kong doesn't help either and having no attraction to Asian. Men doesn't help either very very limited in options here. That's right well you know. We have another tall when I was gonna say sister is what are you. Gills. Six six wives and three quarters. Yeah almost oh my daughter about that toll. Wow so there we go. We could hang out very difficult to find men and I can't imagine being over in Hong Kong that would be D- what brought you there. Was it mainly? You're teaching job. Yeah I applied for teaching job when my daughter was eleven years old so twenty years ago. I came out to Hong Kong to teach for two years. And it's an amazing place to live and I've got a fantastic job and a wonderful school and here. I am twenty years later living in Hong Kong. So it's been really fantastic new life but I've been single for most of that twenty years. That's right so I binged listened to the podcast version of. Fool me twice which is based on your book and it was so. When did all of this happened? You happened in two thousand and ten. So I'd had a few months games in two thousand and seven two thousand eight. Which in the book they feature a little bit in the podcast but the podcast is really about the major scam with Truman at the end which happened in Manchester in the UK.

00:05:08 - 00:10:10

Where to be honest I could have been killed. I really could`ve. I did feel like my life was in danger and Easing yeah listening to the culmination of that whole story had me on the edge may see. It's Oh that's Great. It's very well produced Podcast I was amazed by it but the city. A little bit of the backstory for people who haven't heard about it a little teaser. So does the show. So basically I was single mom living in Hong Kong looking for Love Online and I met this Guy Truman who said he was a manager in a construction site and had his own mobile phone business in the UK in Manchester and after about four months. I went to meet him and when I when I got there. He did look like his pictures so often people who are catfish twitches where somebody's pretending to be somebody else using social media or a false line on identity to pursue a romance. They use different photo is but he'd actually used his real photos but pretty much. Everything else about him wasn't true it turned out including his name so I went to meet him and then it just started to go awry and there were all these red flags which I didn't really just ignored. Let's face it. I did. And he wanted to make me to lend him money. He'd quit his job as a construction manager so he could spend time with me Which just absolutely didn't make any sense but I just chose to ignore it and then he will. I lent him some money and then he got violent and oh just went crazy and he tried to get more out of me but I was reluctant and that annoyed him and in the end I ended up getting smashed between the door and a wall and having to escape him and get the car back which he pressured me not to ensure and it was just a whole lot of sort of gas lighting and pressure and emotional reeling in and then repelling and violence and then sweet toll king and I was jetlagged and just wanting love and also you know hormonal everything you really looking for intimacy and thinking that this guy was gorgeous and yeah overall. It was a disaster but I escaped with the car and my life and then I wrote a book and then my daughter helped me turn into a true crime podcast and we got in the podcast. We've got scam. Victims and experts on scamming in oil also got a scammer a real life scammer from Ghana in the last episode. And he talks about why he scams and how he does say that was a real coup to get hold of somebody that was willing to speak to me as well right yeah. The whole story was just edge of your seat. Binge ability to and I love the format which was eight episodes yet. Nine nine episodes yes can self contained series. Which has finished sold out now so people can listen to it which is great. I love doing that. Yeah it was. It was a very quick you know day and half of me doing a Lotta laundry and really scrubbing counters. As I was listening to everything I loved it was so great but yeah so tell us about kind of the whole what we want to do with. This too is to really help people right. I mean that part of your goal in putting absolutely and in the back of the book which is also called for me twice by Joe's Hannaford and you can get on Amazon. There's a whole section on red flags what to watch out for I dissect a fake email from a real scammer. That I got about eleven years ago I give examples of how you can online date safely. And how and what to do if you're caught in emergency as well so the goal is really to talk about it and to get out in the open because scamming is a billion dollar industry and Romance Scams as one of the hugest industry in the world and its billion dollars a year just in Canada in America and what I wanted to do was open up the conversation because many people feel very ashamed and I must say I fill a huge amount of shame when I was writing the Balkan going back over to normal school teacher and a role model and I've got to teach kids not to do exactly what I did because I actually teach a subject called learning for life which is personal social health education and so it was. I was very ashamed and embarrassed of the choices that I made. But it just goes to show you that. They're very professional at what they do. They're skilled reeling. You in it can happen to absolutely anybody in some of the experts that I spoke to on the Podcast said that they know doctors and lawyers and policemen and judges.

00:10:10 - 00:15:04

Who has happened to and I think wanted to open up the conversation to warn people to help other people are in their stories and to overcome the shame that they're feeling and to feel that they can reach out for help and support. Because it's amazing. How much better? I feel now now that I've put my book and the podcast out there. I've had soya much support so many people contacting me and telling me how much they love. The bulk of the podcast. People telling me how. I've helped them not to be scammed. And I think all of those reasons I feel like I've been number to let go of the shame and I feel like I've been to accept that I made these mistakes and I can learn from them and help others. And maybe that's why it happened to me right. Absolutely yeah and I've read on the subject of-- I've dated a few narcissists in my day and then I got--  There was one in particular that was terrible and it led me down finding out about narcissism and then sociopaths and psychopaths. I read so many books and there was one from a woman. I'll have to find the name but it. (How To Spot A Dangerous Man by Sandra L. Brown, M.A.) It was exactly what you said, in that it was generally very educated professional women who would... who would get scammed most frequently. It had nothing to do with-- It had more to do with just being a person that trusts others and who are empathetic. But it didn't have anything to do with being naive. They're very strong professional businesswoman. And that surprised me. But I felt like I was one of those two. And I kind of got duped and...

M: But wouldn't you say yours was maybe more of a con man versus a professional scammer? Yeah I probably and maybe Truman was to sounds more like he. Yeah I think we're in in in the N. T. had once the police actually found him and arrested him and they couldn't end up charging him. But that's a long story but it turned out that he was a career criminal with a rap sheet back to the nineteen nineties. Need had over. Twenty aliases so I think he was a career criminal was just starting to Dabble in romance scams. And that's why first of all he met me like most Gama's never make their victims but although he kind of didn't have I don't think she really wanted to meet me. I imposed on him. I guess I'm not sure you better and say hey did. He used his real photo which my scammers don't do as well so I think he was a career criminal who was just sort of moving into the world of scamming but when I went back through the book I could say I kept all of Ascott conversation and I could see how he was manipulating me and how he was grooming me and so I was able to forgive myself a little bit. More and Wayne's I think it's interesting because I did have a level of naievety despite my level of education to spite my global traveling. Uh My job. I still was naive in that. I really didn't think about how I mean. It was two thousand and ten and scamming wasn't prevalent like it is now so I didn't have any sort of stories that I could hook into but I just believed in the best in people and that is naive in itself because there are a lot of people who manipulative nasty main Evil having said that there are a lot of people on the Internet who are genuine. Say It you know. It's not the it's not completely a disaster story and some people can find online now. I just had very bad luck. So yeah did you is one thing that you could glean from what you would do differently or were there. Just several red flags that you would snuck off. Lost his experience. There's so many things I would do differently. So many I mean one of the first ones is skype with somebody or face time with them face to face and talk to them before you made them lights. Truman had so many excuses. Not To skype with me now. I don't know whether I was actually writing with Truman or not. I don't know why it could. There was a guy that he shared a supposedly was sharing a shot with. None of this was true but I don't know whether that guy his name was hang on accounts as next can't remember what name using that guy. That Caucasian Guy Shop. Hey could have been the one doing the writing on skype. I really deny because I don't know how a debt truman water writing and his writing wasn't too bad when you met him and spent time with him in the UK did his.

00:15:04 - 00:20:07

Did he speak the way he wrote? Was he saying was similarly and we had talked on the fine so it was definitely him speaking to on the fine but he had kind of an African British accent and he passed it off as the fact that he was naughty kid and he was adopted and so his parents sent him off to Canada to boarding school. And that's why he's accent was weird and I fell for that because I wanted to. You know looking back. It didn't make sense. He did sound kind of African and when I was there his his sort of you know we went to African restaurants. He was speaking in Ghana Nigerian to people in those restaurants. You know there were so many red flags that were saying look. This guy isn't British and he wasn't adopted but I really just chose to ignore them all until we went out one night and he'd already got the money out of me and he was carrying and when he was celebrating. Kazoo so excited to have the money and he just started to get violent or not violent aggressive with taxi drivers an aggressive with people around him and not when questioned him on that he got aggressive with me and then I was just come into that sick feeling in my stomach. Like something's not right. This is wrong. He's got my money. I've gotTA GET OUTTA here. And that's when I tried to escape from the Hotel Room. I got the money back and I tried to get out and it just went terribly wrong. And it's quite exciting. Pine I think in the first episode of the series and then the next day he rode back in again with his apologies and his platitudes and his promises for the future. And I was made me second. Guess how I was feeling the night before? And whether I'd been too on him. And this is all part of gas lighting which is a very very good technique that people use to make you feel like your going crazy or your second. Guess you second guess your decisions and so in the end I stayed with him until the final culminating violent incident where I was able to get away with that period of time that you stayed with him. It was a week six six or seven days. That's it yeah. So what escalated that fast? Mike escalated that fast because after that after that incident where I tried to get away and couldn't he took me to live a poll and showed me this apartment building that he was trying to buy an apartment in and he wanted me to go in on the apartment with him. So we've got a small amount of money out of me about three thousand six hundred pounds at that point and then he wanted me to go in on this apartment and by then. I was really skeptical and just trying to follow my gut which was telling me that things weren't right now. I'd said so. That annoyed him and he drove home really really fast and then the evening he convinced me to lend him another six hundred four hundred pounds he wanted but for some reason. I gave him five or six hundred pounds because he needed to pay rent and his check from his his business hadn't come because of the holiday period from the construction company but there was no construction company. There was no check coming but I lent him a bit more money but also I wanted his approval. I wanted to make him happy. I fell on edge when he wasn't one. He wasn't happy with me so to give him. The money made him really happy but then he disappeared into the night with that money. And that's that was the night before. When he came back in the morning it all went crazy and then. I I was leaving that day anyway but I had this high car that he'd gotten really angry on the second day with me and he didn't want me to ensure it and it was gone and I thought he was going to steal it. I thought I could be up for twenty thirty thousand pounds. If that car was lost I was in a real panic about the car. And that's one of the reasons. Why put myself in more danger going up to the hotel room with him? Raise a wanted to get the car back whereas I'd recommend to anybody leave the car. Don't put yourself in danger. Get Out of that situation so you could have died. In retrospect when you look at that could have absolutely. I was in a random hotel on the outskirts of Manchester with psychopathic criminal. Who was going absolutely mental at me screaming like Natta. I think one of the reasons I kept my cool was because I'd been in domestic violent relationships in my twenties so this was not unfamiliar to me so when he started kicking off like a psychopath and screaming nutter in towering over main going mad icon to throw a sheet. Here we go again. It was very familiar because I had that experience with my daughter's father when I was young and another guy had been with us well when I was young so I think that experience having been in domestic violent relationships in my twenties helped me get out of this one because I stayed super calm.

00:20:07 - 00:25:02

I didn't get angry. I didn't get hysterical. I didn't freak out. I was completely calm and I was just like. Give me back the carcase. Please give me the car keys. And then he threw them at me and I caught them and then he smashed me between the door and a wall and also stunned and and then gathered my sensors and followed him downstairs. Because I knew that he'd have to get all this stuff out of the car which was another stupid thing. I should have just gotten to safety with paypal. Not followed him in but then I got. Dan Stays mental the staff behind the counter and the guide being helping me earlier and his wife was there and now a freaking out. And I'm like Oh my God. I've got to protect these people. Like I'm such a rescuer in my in my real life. I'm not going to get him out of here. So when outside and cody amount and he left those people and came out and so terrible. I'm feeling I can feel it now. Even though it was eleven years ago while I'm talking about it and I walk past this guy and I'm like if this guy starts me calm. Call the police right. Yeah okay this random guy. That was smoking in the car park. And then hey I can't if I gotTa Gile is screaming at me and I'm just like okay. I've got to back off 'cause I'd asked him then for the money. He's what money that's no. Money is just going nuts so as I forget the money. This guy's absolutely unhinged. Get yourself out of here so I backed off now in when you look back at that. Was He losing his cool or was that a big show to get you out of there or what was that okay. So it's who knows it could have been to get rid of me. It could have been him losing his Co. because he'd been out or not and he was drunk. I have since I haven't told anyone. They sent me. Share something with you just for you and your listeners. Nobody knows this is not in the podcast. And it's not in the book scared. I I have since found Truman online. He is on facebook. I found him on. Facebook is still using the same. Elliot's that he used with me and he looks like from what he's written and from his post that has been through treatment for alcoholism so I think yeah so. I think he was really really drunk. And that's why he was behaving like that but it was one of those situations where. I couldn't really tell because he seemed quite in control but I think alcohol played a big part in the whole thing and I wasn't aware of it but then there are happy drunks and then there are psychopaths so yes he was sell. Kahal brought out whatever but who say. He knew he wasn't getting any more out of me. Because of the The Liverpool thing Mariah had refused and Roger. Grimes who is a Internet security guy who I interviewed on for me twice said that that was so unique that I actually didn't hand over everything and I didn't lose everything and I got myself out of it and he was really wondering what was it that made me understand and realize whereas so many other people will lose everything to this game or and it goes on for years and years and I think it's the fact that I actually met him in person. I think that's part of how I was able to. Really tap into those instincts and get myself out of it and if I hadn't met him in person I don't know I mean also having met him in person. I probably lost more than I would have not meeting him because I can't imagine I would have given him money without ever having met him. I don't I maybe I would have. Who knows but yes. It's very unique that I got myself out of the situation and didn't lose absolutely everything. So that the part in between I'm guessing is how much he how much time he spent telling you. How wonderful you were. There was probably so much love in between the crazy parts right. So you're they know how to bring you back in absolutely they do they really you in with its code grooming and they a formula that they use and he even spoke to my daughter on the phone and you know that even made me like him even more because of the way he was speaking to her and you know he just kept telling me. How amazing wasn't there would be these kind of PSYCHOPATHIC or mad moments? And then they'd be this reeling me back in telling me wonderful and I was the only look for in a woman and all this sort of thing but it was just. It was just so crazy and I was just so caught up in this dream of having a partner and it was. I was in early forties. I've been alone for a long long time. I desperately really wanted somebody in my life. I felt like I was that was really lacking in. I really crave intimacy and I think that's part of your hormones and also the Oxytocin is released in your brain.

00:25:02 - 00:30:03

It's a love hormone and it makes you connect with people and then it can make more rational decisions because of the way that you are feeling in that situation so all of this combined led me to get myself into a situation where I was really in danger and now that I'm post menopausal. I don't have that same desire for intimacy. I don't have that same desperate. Need to have a partner. It's really interesting how I think hormones did play a part and I can see that more in hindsight now that you know. I'm ten years into menopause. Well Perry and whatever sixties so I haven't had a period whatever for six years and my symptoms. Ernie trying to any like stopping now and I just don't have that same desire. Yeah that helps so that does help we. Can we go back to the fact that you've found him on facebook or yeah that's what I wanted to ask about? Oh yes when? I was writing the book a couple of years ago. I searched for him on facebook and one. I was doing the when I was doing the podcast. I actually considered contacting him and seeing if I could get him to interview me. I really did consider it but then I just saw. That is such a risk because I'll be drawing attention to the book. Ob I'm still using the same first name like those. Sorry Truman is the correct name like his second name in. The book is up and there's never been any contact since he's never tried to get back at you or you're not worried that there's going to be any follow up and I will. I don't think he knows about the book and I just didn't decided not to address attention to the book of the PODCAST. Somebody may tell one day but it looks like he's in Garner from his facebook page. It looks like he's left the UK isn't in Ghana. So but when I got back to Hong Kong. After the whole event he did try to blackmail me for more money but I think I talked about in the podcast so he was in touch her while and I did try to get some of the money back but of course I was never gonNA get any of it back but he tried to blackmail me for more and I had to tell. I had to tell my one of my colleagues at work that he was threatening to say that I was a liar and a thief to my work and stuff like that and so I had to give him a heads up because he had my business card so he knew where I work and the police anything. Well the police. That was interesting because the police wouldn't do anything because I wasn't in the country but I persisted and I think I really I ended up going to the top and speaking to an inspector and saying look. This guy could do this to other women. This is just ridiculous. Of course I should be able to make a statement from Hong Kong. You've got to. You've got to understand that. This is a new thing that's happening are done. Some research on Romance Scams and I realized that it was the thing and and this inspector finally a great to let me make a statement from Hong Kong so then the pro then it started to go move forward but the policeman in charge of my case. He was off work for ages with a back injury. And then some other girl picked it up but she didn't really follow through and then eventually they kick off gave them human treatments address because he'd taken me to his house so I went on Google Earth and I found the house and found the address. How yeah and so. I gave the police address. And they actually kicked his door in and he wasn't there and then finally they did arrest him. And Hayes and Hayes denied it all and said that it was just a normal domestic gimmick between partners and but they said they had enough evidence. Because I had it I had taken my. I like my. I was taking for about three or four months afterwards because I ended up having bruises on my head and my hip and my side and my and my watch face was broken so head of fighters of that and I had a doctor's report for my head injury and that's when he slammed you against the wealth from that source. I'm here with a door in the wall. So they said I haven't had enough evidence to prosecute him in the end but then they said the six month statute of limitations had passed by the time that they arrested him so they couldn't move forward with the case even though they had enough evidence now it turns out. I made a complaint to the Complaints Commission in the UK and it turns out that there wasn't a There wasn't a statute of limitation on the case. But by then I'd had enough disrupted these law. He'd had his door kicked in he'd been he'd been arrested. That's when they told me his real name which was interesting. They gave me his real full name which I haven't reviewed anyway. Because of the danger of it they gave me. They said that when they said he had an an alias as twenty. Aliases in a rap sheet back to the early nineties in the UK.

00:30:04 - 00:35:03

And that's when I might blood ran cold because all my gosh I my life really walls in danger was his rap sheet about and you can imagine you can imagine so and the by then I was like I don't I can't afford to fly back and forth for a court case. I don't know that they would put me on video conferencing as a witness to a court case. I've got a fulltime job. Annum single mom living in Hong Kong. Howard I find the time so I was actually happy to let it grow so I think there are a few miscommunication with the police in a few hiccups with the place but overall the British police treated me really well and very respectfully and they were great. They were issues there. That could happen with anybody in but know what you wrote a book in. You wrote in. You did a podcast in. That's wonderful. That's forming a lot of people. Fool me twice. I just WANNA keep saying the name because it is so good. Fool me twice. Its podcast and beck both both available kind of everywhere. You get your book so you have the book on Amazon. Podcast is on the podcast platforms and books on Amazon and Barnes and noble. It's not in bookshops. In other countries apart from Hong Kong and then in my local bookstore in Adelaide in South Australia. But yeah it's on Amazon. And the PODCAST is another podcast called for me twice. I look for the Blue Logo with by Jews and Sarah fact. I'm going to show it to the camera. This may or may not come up so fool me twice. Yeah and it is so worth this amazing. Yeah very well thank you so much. She has an. I work super hard. Donna like Roy. Did that take you sorry? If you don't mind me on the podcast I was blown away. I'm like I know her and it sounds so professional we can only do that level. I reckon the whole thing probably took I reckon six months working on Zara Road at all my daughter. So because she'd been the final line editor on my book which was absolutely brilliant. She did such a fantastic job in an she's an editor. If anybody wants needs a great editorial writer Synonym Editing Dot Com and she then I was like I'm never riding again after the book. I don't WanNa do it? Can you ride for me? She wrote it. I flew to the US because she's in the US and we recorded it together in a hotel in the US. Really and and I went to the true crime podcast festival in Chicago. And that's where I have met some of our experts and I got interviews there and then I came back and then I did I did I. Reckon two hundred thirty hours or more editing. On the nine episodes I edited the whole thing I produced it and then we had to add extra bits in and then we had an amazing sound design. A coup shade furlong from Brisbane. Absolutely brilliant and he did all the sound design so all the music and the entire show is written from scratch for the production. Well it's Graham ABS- some people in the reviews height the music but I think it's a personal choice but I absolutely love it and I really love it. And then you're part of an off cast network. What has always cost net cost networks? Liam and Andy from Oscar is network which happened to be in Adelaide My then my network so they invited me in for my other podcasts. Which is called Hong Kong confidential where I interview interesting and fascinating people in Hong Kong and I'm up to like two hundred episode two hundred twenty six so something. That's a weekly podcast. So they took me on it about episode six which is amazing because not many networks would pick up somebody so early on in their career when when I really hadn't didn't have the downloads and they gave me a chance and it turns out. They come from my same hometown in Adelaide. Only know where they were in Australia. So I've actually been able to meet up with them and I did a podcast festival with them and they're fantastic so it's great being with that network. It gives me that little extra level of support and add. They helped me find advertising for for me twice and they've got Hong Kong confidential end for me twice on their network and they're fast becoming one of the biggest networks in Australia. I think there were only a year old and I started with them. But they're brilliant. They're doing really really well and they're just great guys who are really supportive and you know. They've helped me sort at merchandise. Hong Kong confidential and for me twice. And they're fantastic. So it's a real honor to be a part of the network and you. Yeah congratulations you. Had A big climb on the charts to recently. Which is that was exciting. I got to lie. Eighty three or something and true crime in the US about the last episode launch.

00:35:03 - 00:40:03

So that was amazing and I was in the top one hundred in Canada Australia and America and New Zealand. And Gosh I can't even remember like a win crazy and I'm pushing nine hundred thousand downloads. And it was only launched three months ago yesterday. Wow Yeah so in three months. I've had ninety thousand downloads thousand in less than four months from release so it can be done people just ham be done you have to put in the time and effort in the front end and make it sound good. Have a compelling story and be A likable person. I mean I'm I was pulling for you from the very beginning and the fact that your daughter was a part of it too and she asked the question you know. Why would this happen to my mom so it really does set up the whole big picture and yeah and I think as a true crime podcast. It's kind of unique because it has that mother daughter aspect but it's also may the victim telling the story so many crew true crime podcast stories about other people and their investigative and But this may telling my story and it's also a topic that's not been covered that much in true crime apart fron dirtyjohn which is An end who the hell is Hamish to others in vain about being scammed? But can I just say that my friend dated dirtyjohn right before he went onto the woman of the story? And Oh my God. That's why this is so amazing to talk to you too and just find out you know. I was thinking about going in the world of online dating and hearing that the story of dirty John and my friend in listening to that podcast. It really scared me. And I don't WanNa be scared so scared and I want to point out that one third of all people who get married in today's Society Mate Online and there are many many people who Truly genuine people looking for love online. And it can be done. But you've gotta get my book and read all the red flags and how to online tyneside date safely at the end of it and make sure you're knowledgeable and do your due diligence and never ever ever go to meet somebody that you haven't script with face to face. I and make sure that you made in public place. And that you've got a get out clause always have somebody called me or text me during thing to check on how. I'm going make sure you've given all the details that you have on that person to your friends and also Google people like and you guys in America have a thing called spiky. Oh where you can you can type in the name of somebody and find out where they live and all the details and cross check everything. I mean we don't have that in Hong Kong been on the user. You could have seen the criminal record to pull up records. Who spoke here. Does I mean I've tried to get on it but I can't because I'm not in the US? Donald definitely tried to use it. And it's hard. I know if someone has an alias. Who you're even looking up so that and also look to be fair even when you meet somebody. If there is skilled criminal they will charm you. They really will say then. It comes down to really trusting your gut instinct and taking things slow. Don't sleep with them or invite them to your place very quickly Do never ever ever give anybody any money for any reason whatsoever. Even if they sang their in a desperate situation in their child or their dog is going to die to start. Give it to any any money to anybody. And I think if you're online dating try to try to find people in your area don't look for long distance distance relationships look for people online in your area and then made them as quickly as you can because you can never ever noy if you truly have a connection with somebody online even if you speak to them face to face you've gotTA SMELL THEIR MINDS. You've got to be able to spend time with them. You need to see how they interact with white staff and taxi drivers an all that cassette can tell you a lot about a person and I tell you what that told me a lot about Truman. The Way He interacted with other people that was some of the things that really did trigger. My Red Eye red flags flying was the one. How was it was he? Did he talk down to wait? Staff rude as aggressive and rude and there was an incident in the hotel where he had a go. At this woman. For telling me we shouldn't have been in the VIP lounge with his mates that hate invited in when we'd already been told that that was only for guess and he kicked off at hair. I was so embarrassed and I apologize to her afterwards and he was just awful so I loved when you Kinda shamed him too when you told the other girls something about paying the bill for the food and and he got so mad at you because yes aimed him.

00:40:03 - 00:45:07

And that's like a big Achilles heel with these narcissist guys these con artists you can. I'd give an indication that I was paying for the hotel because I knew I was paying for the hotel. And I'd kind of that. You know that they were like ooh lucky that he's trading you to this hotel nuts. Latin. That's right I mean. I didn't even say I'm doing it. I just giving them a knowing. Look Hey went. Nuts left the food stormed out. And that's the nod. I tried to get away from him because I I'm not okay. This is just crazy And was it. What did he say about that? Was He emasculated in public? By the end of the day you had day you indicate that yearn your going to pay for it all who you think you give me. Give me the money. I'm going home because I was carrying it. He'd given it back to me to carry. That not Nasdaq. Oh-oh darker didn't want him to go home. I didn't want my money but you know it's too excited on the money in the car. Rather than getting myself out of this situation and then dealing with like already had his address. I could've gone to the cops at night and we could have found him and I got the money in the car back sort of thing. I mean I still had the car but but also I think there's a part of me that you know wanted it not to be true or wanted to ignore that right. He was behaving that. He's been drinking. You know he's under stress. He'd been failing stick earlier in the week. Like making all pathetic excuses for why he was behaving that way. And don't forget. I've spent years in ten years into domestic violent relationships in my twenties so therefore his behavior wasn't that unfamiliar and it wasn't that kind of out of the realm of possibilities of water relationship actually looks like because I have never had a functional decent relationship sense. Well this one go never listen hopefully to this. Let's they never find. Yeah Yeah Yeah. There's one guy in America that I was saying I met him on tinder and he would comes to China for business and Hayes. Really Nice Guy. And he's a decent guy. He was honest with me right from the beginning that he didn't WanNa relationship but we just kept sort of seeing each other off and on and he was a bit grumpy but he he was a decent enough guy and he's since met somebody in his saying them. But we're still friends and Hayes really nice so yes he's probably the only person near enough to someone normal there. I've dated but it didn't even really work out and it wasn't even proper dating this guy a guy that was long distance. Yeah this this is only in the last four or five years so you did date again. But it's not something that's high on your radar now that you want. It's not okay and look I've had a couple of diet since maybe three and one guy lives in Hong Kong and I could see him again but it's just not quite right this guy in the US. We're still friends. But he's saying somebody else and we never really were thing. It was just whenever he came over here or if I went to New York and I'm still on tinder looking. I'd still like to have a partner. Do get lonely in a way. I feel that gap with podcasting and writing and teaching and keeping super busy. And I think that's one of the things that I have done to sort of compensate for that loneliness. 'cause I've been on my own for Gosh Twenty five years It's a longtime all the relationships I've had in twenty five years wouldn't even fill one year was sad because you consider the guy from the US. Even that's been over four years. I might have only seen him three times a year for a week right. I'm waiting a week here and the Janata main or three days here in this I. Did you ever did this person? Send you into therapy. Did you ever 'cause I definitely started looking into that looking at patterns of people and then just tried to read a lot on like why? Yeah I've done a lot of counseling and therapy over the years off and on and actually. I saw life coach four times. And that's when I started my podcast. Hong Kong confidential did that after seeing a life coach. But I've done I mean I did. I did counseling course for year where I spent six months looking at myself. And then six months of accounting ticket which I use as a schoolteacher. It's not like a proper qualification but that was years before I met. I'm Truman. That was before that so but I I do really believe in therapy and I've done a lot of self reflection and a lot of healing work and I did the Brown rising strong course which was grow.

00:45:07 - 00:49:40

That's yeah that's amazing. Yeah that daring greatly. It was one of the two but that was anything hers. Amazing Yeah. She's amazing quite her a lot in my book actually and refer to her and talk about how owning my story really has set me free. Like don't feel the shame and the guilt that I felt before and I've been able to forgive myself for the choices that I made and hopefully I'm helping other people and my next goal is to get. Fool me twice made into a Netflix series. Yeah I love it. I'm trying to work out how to do that. But that's what I want to do next. Okay well Netflix. You know we're all connected. So yeah. Yeah any nosing listening to this naturally produces listening to this podcast reach out to choose Oh well thank you so so much for your story. It is so compelling, so good, has so many levels to it. And you can learn so much; even someone like me who is married and all settled down. You know it makes you kind of open your eyes to the world of just really looking at things for what they are. Entrusting your gut and not being naive to every Tom, Dick and Harry. That might need something for you in and-- And this is more of a Dick I would say. Yeah absolutely! And it does come down to trusting your intuition is a big thing. We all have a and we often ignore it right right. I think that is but thank you so much for having me on shore. It's been a real pleasure and I hope that people will check out my podcast or buy my book and to reach out if you want to make any sort of feedback or anything like say your main URL to-- What website should people go to for all the things? Okay. So I've got a website which is and you can access the book there as well. And then is my website for Hong Kohn Confidential as well. And then I'm at @JulesHannaford on Twitter and Instagram FoolMeTwiceJH and FoolMeTwiceJH on Facebook. That's right. And she's part of the Lady Pod Squad that we're all grouped up with and we all help support each other and lift each other up. And we were very glad to get your support. We're happy to support you. And it's brilliant. I love that Facebook group. And in fact one of the ways that I think I've really got into a nearly one hundred thousand downloads so quickly is the support of other podcasters. The cross promotions, the shoutouts, the re-tweeting, the connections that I've made through podcasting in the last two and a half years enabled me to really launch Fool Me Twice and I couldn't have the success I'm having without the podcasting community. It wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as it is. But I say thanks to you guys and everyone out there like us. What a great community. Yeah I know. Yeah, a great takeaway is to find your community. If you're in a domestic violence situation, find your community. If you've been scammed in a romance, find your community. If you're a podcaster, come hang out with us! So yeah. Yeah well so glad to have you. Thank you so much and we'll let you get back to your day in Hong Kong. Yes thank you. We're honored to have you as a guest. This is really exciting. Thank you so much. I'm honored to be here and it's been so lovely to meet you girls in person. That's been really amazing you to take her right. Let me know when it comes out. We'll tell you okay. Bye! Bye!
That was Jules Hannaford. You can find her at her website listed. Please go to our show notes at for more information, as well as find us on all of our social media @MouseAndWeens. You have to spell it all out. We would love your support on Patreon as well so please go to and we'll see you soon. Thanks for listening! Bye!

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