mouse and weens

Hollywood vs housewife sisters fascinated by how people think.  a fun conversational podcast with heart.

Episode 55 - Mean Girls

E55 – Mean Girls
We have encountered undermining women lately and try to get to the bottom of it. Mouse and Weens dig into some evolutionary biology - caveman theories - and we look at young girl groups to understand early mean girl behavior. Why are some women hurtful to each other in the workplace? How do you deal with anger, jealousy, resentment, and sabotage? What can women do to remedy the situation? Hear about both Joelle’s and Julianne’s current mean girl situations, after we play catch up talking kids, cord and screen drama, a Hulk Hogan archery master, whether our dad was the Golden State Killer, and reminiscing about a cute crush boy. Then take a 60’s music trivia quiz with us! The big picture here is to learn about female dynamics and how to improve future situations and relationships with other women.
References and other links are listed below here at
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Podcast Promos: The Cult of Domesticity and Ignorance Was Bliss
Song credit: “She’s A Mean Girl” by Dan Mahoney and Julianne Eggold
Links: Los Angeles Women's Theater Festival:

“Relational Aggression: Why Women Hurt Each Other” by Kris Stewart, TedX Talks, August 27, 2014.

“The Woman Problem” by Erin Dunham, TedX Talks, July 1, 2015.

“Why Women Compete With Each Other” by Emily V. Gordon, New York Times, Opinion, October 31, 2015.

 “Mean girls become mean women: How to protect yourself from adult Regina Georges” by Mary Stringer, Metro UK, Opinion, June 9, 2017.

Lean In by Sheryl Sandberg, 2013.

Episode 55 – Mean Girls 6/26/19

0:00 - 05:03
Yay! We’re here! Ah, it’s been so long! Weens, how are you? I know! You've been busy. I'm good. How are you, Mouse? Hey thanks. I'm good. It's summer. I’m busy with kids and camps and things like that. I'm Joelle down in San Diego, by the way. That's me, Mouse. And, yeah, just all sorts of mom BS. What about you? What are you --? Uh oh. She's frustrated because she's been searching for headphones and all I heard was-- Can I tell them? Oh no. What? ‘These fucking kids!’ Oh! Because there were no headphones left. They took them all so you couldn't record right now, right? Yeah. You finally found a pair. Finally, one last pair all jarbled up in the bottom of a drawer. I found them. But we used to have cords and headphones everywhere. And the kids with their phones now - they're all gone. It sucks. Oh, I have never experienced such cord drama. But remember what you picked me up on the way to our mom's house in Idaho? They picked me up and I decided to ride with them the fifteen hours in the car with all the kids, with you too. This is when we decided to do this podcast. Oh yeah! We designed the logo, the website and everything, on the car ride. That's right! But I have never had so much cord drama. Can you plug my phone in? Can you unplug my phone? Can you move my phone to there? Where's my cord? Where's my headphones? Aaah! It was the whole trip. Oh my God. And then we had a dog in the middle of it all. So this tangle of cords and then this golden retriever getting caught up in them. And yeah it was awful. What did we do on fifteen hour road trips before? We had to look at bushes. Yeah. "I see a bush. I see a tree." We'd play an alphabet game on signs or those little bingo, slidey cards. Remember? The travel games? Yeah. I wanna bring it all back. But then I don't. Then you have to listen to them. Remember at one point on this trip you said, "All right, no more screens. Everyone turn their screens off." Then they all shut them down, and then they started fighting. You're like, "Okay, screens back on." And then they were quiet again. It was great! I know. I saw what you go through every day. I'm so glad because I go back and forth between this guilt of letting them tube out and being a bad mom. But then - yeah - then getting so frustrated and mad at them when they're not on screens and then they're mean to each other. I know there's a happy medium. I think it's like coming off of drugs. We just need to like ease into it for a few days. No. It's fine. It was a long, long road trip. So that is a different situation. They're normally really good. You could tell them to turn it off. Like if we're just going for short ride to the beach. Yeah. They're all fine. They're pretty good. It was just that one sixteen hour being confined. The dog on your lap the whole time staring and breathing in your face. I know. And we used to be able to get away with just Disney movies on the main screen. We have a screen in the TV in the car, and now there are a little too mature for that. But that we have the eight year old daughter, who isn't and would love that. So it's like what type of movies? Are we gonna watch and it's a whole thing. But it's all right. It works out. I feel pretty normal. When I talk to my friends, they all go through it too. So no. Oy. What can you do? Yeah. But the fourteen year old is off to camp and they don't let cellphones on campus at all. So he's a whole week without phones. Wow! Yeah. And today they're the rock climbing. So it's kind of a cool, fun camp. Does he like it? You were worried that he wouldn't like it. He does. His best friend is there. So I think that helps, but yeah. The van picks him up every morning drops off every night. It's kind of awesome. Could I ever go with him? I wanna do all these things. Can I just up and be the weird adult person there climbing? You could work there. They're always hiring counselors, but you don't want to have to-- Yeah, that are sixteen! Yeah. Well. I'm old and creepy. That might be a little awkward. No you'd be good at it! Well, I did.. I just-- I went to see Matt, upright bass playing Matt Corey's show at the-- Tuesday he plays at the Jones Coffee House, and so we go sometimes in the morning. When I'm not working, I could go. And I went there the other day, and there was this wonderful man that looked like a skinny Hulk Hogan, and with the-- He just had, like, what is, wife-beater tank tops but with little like Greek looking pecs sticking out. And then he had a little satchel on his back full of arrows and he was sitting watching the show. And he turns out, he's an archery master. What? So I'm gonna take archery lessons. I've always wanted to be an archer. Is that what they call them? Yeah. I guess so. Oh my gosh. Really? So you thought this was normal that guy has bows and arrows in a coffee shop? Weren't you a little worried?

05:06 - 10:02

Uh, I probably still need to do some therapy around stuff like this because of course that's the first person I'm attracted to talking to! And now I have his little poster on my refrigerator. And someone came over and said, "Why is Hulk Hogan on your refrigerator wearing arrows?" I said, "Well, funny story." But I, I'm going to go learn how to Hunger Games it up. And it wasn't-- I was not influenced by that movie. I have to tell you, when I was selling cookies for Girl Scouts. You know you have that booklet that tells you what prize you would win? Oh yeah. Important. You're selling like thousands of dollars worth of cookies, and then they give you like jacks and a ball. That's your prize for doing all this? Totally. Anyway, mine was a plastic arrow like a little-- It was the arrow! I sold a lot of cookies from the support of the neighbors, and I got an arrow and some bows and I went up in the hills and started shooting trees. Did you? Isn't that fun? What do you remember getting from Girl Scouts? Do you remember choosing a prize? Yeah, unicorn stuff.  I remember unicorns were hot when I was selling cookies so with Thin Mints, more unicorns. They're back! Back in the day when you could actually walk around by yourself and knock on doors and not worry about being whisked away by strangers. Now were they still whisking back then? They were. We had the Bay Area Rapist. That was a huge thing that they just solved that case, right? That was the Golden State Killer. Is that it? Mmmhmm. Same guy? Yeah. I think so. I remember dad was taking-- He like jogged at night or something. And what happened? Someone called the cops on him because they're like, "There he is! He's peeping on my windows!" And he's like, "I'm just jogging in my neighborhood." I don't know. The cops came and he had to put his hands up and like--  Remember that? We'll have to ask mom about this story. We have a bizarre-- Well, I shouldn't say bizarre. We have a very connected-to-nature side of the family where the, the men like our uncles go off in the woods at night to connect to nature. It was always done in a very, you know, getting connected to our human nature. Yeah, Walt Whitman. Kind of poetic. Yeah. There's a lot of Walt Whits in the family. And I, I think dad-- That was around Halloween. This is my recollection. He had a mask. Oh yeah! He had some kind of Halloween mask. Yeah. Was he trick or treating? Yeah. This might be like something we want to talk about. Maybe he is the Golden State Killer, but-- No! Sorry dad. We love you. He was a very nice person. But he was-- We had half of our houses were developed and the other half I think had like new developments where there would be two homes that were built on the cul de sac because they were just developing it. So you could still go up on the top of the hill and look over the mountains down at the valley and-- But you would be semi close to someone's house that was, that had just been built or whatever.  I think that's what it was. He was overlooking the valley close to--  (With a mask on?!)  --but had like a mask in his hand. And I think it was around Halloween so just looked like--  Oh, had it in his hand? Something. That's all I remember. We can... let's fact check this with mom. Whoops, just created more work. Oh. Sorry. But yeah, something like that, where they saw him with a mask overlooking, the city. A big honking, six foot four figure right at the time when Friday the 13th is also a big film that had just been released. This could all be making sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. People's fears. And right. Yeah. And, and then I'm taking a step further and I'm like, I think one of us ran away and so he was like looking in windows looking for us. But I think I'm making that up. We didn't run away did we? No. I don't think so. I used to sneak out sometimes. I would jump the window too. Oopsies. Sorry. Where'd you go? I went up the hill to... what was his name?  Oh, he was so cute. Blonde boy with the big lips. Mike Caspi. Something like that? No. What? No. Mike Casper. Yes, Mike! Who am I thinking of? Yeah. Hot. Mike. Mike Casberger. Cass... Casabier! Mike Casabier! Yeah, Mike Casabier. He would hang out with Shannon Shook's brother, Ryan Shook. Yeah, he was so cute. He was. But I think he was a little scrubby. Was he? I think he was scrapper type. Yeah. He was a skater guy. I would just sneak out and we'd meet up, and we'd, "I"m so mad at my dad." Oh he was cute. "Yeah. Me too." Oh, yeah. I'm gonna think about him for a while. He was like a Tom Hardy. Yeah I'll think about him too. He WAS like a Tom Hardy. Yeah. You're right. With the nice big juicy lips and a hot tight face. What does that mean? A couple of fu@king middle aged horny sisters! What the hell? What's happening? So sick! We're like talking about... "I'm gonna think about him again!" "Me too!"

10:04 - 15:05

This is like some twinkie... All about some fourteen year old memory boy! Oh my god. It's like some thirteen year old two-pube twink! What are we doing? I need a man now! Yeah, but look at how deep those imprinted memories--You go right back there and you feel the feelings of a wispy young girl. Yeah. Oh! Yeah the hot summer nights and sneaking out the window and sitting out there on his skateboard on the sidewalk. Ooh! Anyway. The silhouettes. Whew! Coming down, coming down. "It's gonna be a hot town, hot summer night. Radio, about to blow" Anyone? Do you remember that song? Oh! No wait, do your music quiz. You were going to quiz me on music. Oh! Well, I wasn't prepared. Okay. Let me uh keep-- Talk amongst yourselves and-- Okay. I was going to quiz her on 1960's music. Let's quiz everybody. Guys how well do you know your 1960's songs. That's right. Now that Weens is a published singer songwriter-- Yes, thank you  --she is now the expert on songs and will quiz us in decades as we see fit. So yeah. Okay. Ooh. This is real out there. See I went through a sixties phase in high school. I was really into a lot of different music. So we'll see if I still remember any of it. Probably not. Don't do too hard ones though. I'm not because I went to obscure and it started coming up with Screamin' Jay Hawkins deep cuts. So we won't do that to you. Do you know Screamin Jay Hawkins? Why don't you come up with one song that he did? Mm-mm, don't. "I put a spell on you..." Oh yeah. Okay, who sang a song-- It's by The Lovin' Spoonful and it starts. Okay. Here's one of the parts in it. (singing) "Do do. Do do do do do do. Buh, buh, diddle diddle diddle" Hot Town Summer in the City? Hey! You got it! Hey! That was a long intro though. Boy, two whole measures there! That was good. Can I take that out? Okay, name one song by The Turtles. (singing) "Because we're happy. Ba-duh, ba-duh, loving nobody but you..." Oooh! "Happy Together". Good job. Thank you. Good job. All right. Who sings the song, I'm a Believer. I'm a Believer. The Monkees. Yay! Written by Neil Diamond. Oh my gosh. She knows-- You know stuff! All right. Okay. What is this song? Who sings this song? I'm gonna give you a musical intro. Okay. (singing) "Window wipers slapping time and holding Bobby's hand in mine..." Um, "Me and Bobby McGee" by Janis Joplin? Look at you! Did I get it? Yes! Right on! Okay. Good job. Thanks. Oh I can't sing that song. That's terrible. Soul Man. (singing) "I'm a soul man. bu-duh buh bu-duh buh." I don't like it. I know some people love the Blue's Brothers. Who sings that one? I don't know. Honky and the Joes. Wait, you can't say that. Bleep, bleep, bleep! Oh no. Okay. Who? Okay. This is from a band called War. And I think Eric Burton who also was a singer of the animals was in this band. Right. Burton of war. Am I right on this? No, he also saying, okay, what is one of wars songs? This is hard. I was just gonna go at the song, for oh up. Yup. What is it good for absolutely nothing again? Don't say it again, then it's too long. Okay. So okay here. Worse. Okay. Here's a hint. I thought the I'm not going to do that anymore. This is good kid. Okay last one. Here we go ready. Everybody. People of the world. Join in on the. Hamble. Keep going. I got nothing. That'd be the love train. Joe the love train. Okay. Cool, you want to stop. Yeah. That's good. Oh, good. Good, folks. I had no you majority nicely done.

15:05 - 20:01

Thank you. All right, moving on. Are we ready to mean topic? Yeah. All right. We promise this our last episode and we actually did Cerise. Dirk dark dark, dark darn research. We're going to talk about mean girls and women, not supporting women terrible. It's, it's a thing in. We why, and how and what to do. So let's get into it. Weans his this ever happened to you. Can I say, also, this is a topic men can also appreciate because it's going to be your girlfriend, your waves your lovers. Your daughter's your mother's coworker. It's affects everything in factory workers. You're manhole covers your employees, stream makers your friends. Yes. All around. I talked about it in the last episode. So please get back if you'd like to hear the background. But yeah, I have been dealing with some stuff as an adult for the first time ever. I didn't really get a lot of mean girls when I was growing up not too bad. At least that I remembered did you do you have any big things that stand up, or you're dealing with an adult issue to right now? Thank was weird. Here's this. I'll go to mine. Ugo new years. Mine is I do this little like meditation class of leak. And I host it will say I host it. So I created it and you found the space for it, and you said it was asked to take over for someone else, and they said my name as a person who can maybe create a new something like a Blitzer. Yeah. Okay. There were two people involved one has, I don't know what happened to. But the other one is sort of involved, who has taken responsibility to help out, which is great because I could use some help. So it's not all on me now this one person it's a meditation fucking. I'm saying the same thing again. It's glass. So basically, you did you recruit this person or did they ask to be imposed on that? This person, you know, opens and closes and helps out with the place. So he said, oh, it'd be nice to have someone if I have to go out of town or, and so this person became kind of involved as, as like oh, burn. I'm fine. I could share equal fifty fifty don't care. I don't need to be the main controller of the sing yet what it is done when there's not. Okay. So I create a nice candlelit, good vibe good smelling environment. There are terrible for us in lights in this place. I hate Flores of ice more than anything. My eyes have always been very sensitive. Do you get the digging like sound thing that department stores to this? I can't handle the high paid it frequency of the lights and the sound. Okay. So you're sensitive to that, too. So they're terrible. It's the sound. It's the I mean everybody who's been there. So I said it's like him. Yeah. But this person loves to flip on those first lates the second were done the second hits eight in the morning. Those fucking fluorescence come on. And people are still they're talking to each other like getting in, we've just done this big meditation. Everything's a handle kindle, and there's no reason to ever to flip on the lights. Everyone can see fine. There's no reason for no reason whatsoever. I could clean up the whole thing all lock the doors. Oh, how to do it all, but this person know that they're involved is used to opening and closing the place in whatever second. We're done second like eight o'clock in thirty seconds. All the lights come on in everybody just goes. Oh, and really well I'm making more dramatic. I'm sure they're fine. I say just walked in the room, though, everybody, you know, after you do deep meditation. Most people connected there, inner soprano. Jerry. From good. All right. Anyway, member when Henry goes to jail, and then they comes out of jail, and they're all waiting outside, and they say you broke your cherry. No, it's disgusting. The point being the lights, come on for semi said. Oh, can we not do that? I said, oh, hate those lights so much. My eyes are super sensitive, I do mind and end the very beginning note of the format of this, meaning it says, no fluorescent lights because a hate him so much. So the new is on the paper of yes, if anyone else had to do this for me from gone. It would say like some of the stuff on top like no, I make sure those are all off before you start. And, and I blamed it all and myself.

20:01 - 25:09

My is really sensitive, and I hate this thing so much you mind. Oh, yeah. No problem next time, same thing. And then I said, do you need those on because you can't see? And it was no I kind of like half answer, and then just kind of busied around didn't answer directly and then third time turned him on. And I went and I was like. What and I wouldn't I turn them off. And then thirty seconds later that came back on again. He. There's I is this real undermining sabotage like play stuff that's happening. Or is it just I mean you're there so you feel like it's on purpose? It's like because of that one, I wasn't sure if it was just a real OCD person that just didn't even was didn't even think about it and just doesn't because she does open like she does other stuff there. So maybe she feels more responsible for the place. If you have to be somewhere quickly, like, no, you know, nowhere nowhere. There's nothing happening until twelve o'clock. There's no reason to people you're going to do. I was given advice to have a group conscious thing of. Okay. Everybody who are regulars here. Do you wanna do a little vote? Like, what, what are you guys going on? Of course, she will know it's me wanting to address the issue. But I feel like I can't do it directly. Yeah. I've already I could probably do one more time of Hayes or reason. Could we talk about I could really do sit down and say, can we talk about the light thing? So the confrontation but or do I just bring the group of people in that are regulars there and say everybody can we vote on a couple of things? What do you like about this? What do you not like what do you think of the lights coming on directly the second after we're done? Just saying, just saying, there's no, I didn't think of this idea. I'm just asking general question. Generic question. That's I mean, someone said to do that. You even mentioned maybe doing it that way. I said, make a comment box, and then just like the box with a hate the lights the lights on all different rating. Which I'm trying to matured. You know. Totally insured. That's that would be my normal default thing to do that. The passive aggressive. Notes on the door. Yeah. Yeah. I did that several times I could tell you stories later. But yeah. So that would be my usual. I'm trying to be a mature person that I feel like it confronted already. So I guess the only thing is to bring in other people and doing actual. This is why we have judges and juries courts zeal like us. Oh, my voice is not being heard, and I thought it was pretty cool about it. Like real just question it, but maybe I'm a jerk. I don't know. I love the irony, though, that this is like a grew meditation, and it is pushing my buttons more than I come out there. I'm like, what the? Scream off in your car. Yeah. I'm gonna kill this Bursa. Yeah. Right after my God, I don't envy, your situation, 'cause that's like in your face every day or every week you have to deal with it, every Saturday morning. And it's the whole purpose was create a nice space for everybody. And it was like I could have probably done this alone. But just said, yeah, if you want to help out that'd be great. It'd be nice to have someone else to share responsibility with. And it just had. I think you're giving these situations, sometimes to learn. I hate confrontation, I hate morning, I would rather just cut and run. But it can't. So then he probably something that is an to deal with. How do you deal with God the universe? Somebody's telling you figure this confront. Yeah. I know. Hey, too. So what's, what's your deal? Oh, I talked about in the last episode this just referred to that. But okay, we'll just do speaking. Yeah, there's a group of women that I'm part of, and there was some gossip of sudden going around. And I think it was because there was a power difference, you were coming in as. Kind of the newbie, and they were already stylish, right? Yeah. Right. But you were also attaining some recognition from a lot of outside people, which also probably was like, who's this person walk in here, getting all the this, and I think it was also a little bit of not following the rules like not. Yeah. Going through the proper channels of, you know, advancement or whatever which sounds so business, but not really and anyway.

25:10 - 30:00

And then a big thing came up where it was exciting in, you know, it was for the greater good. Like oh, yeah. This thing could happen. Let's make this happen, and it got shut down by the same group and maybe. Was for a real reason, but it felt a lot more like sabotage gonna move so that. Back in their place. I don't know it was for seventy. I mean you told. Well. Story. That's the problem. So in my case, I wanted to figure it out and so kept trying to, you know. Was met with just a wall. Like nobody wanted to communicate about this. So I couldn't really go anywhere with it except in my own head in just move along. So that brought me into like what is going on never dealt with this? How can women not support each other in what's happening? What did I do? Must be me whereas them. And, you know, trying to figure this whole thing out, is it one person is a lot of people. I don't know. No, no talked me, so that brought us into this research, and I really wanted to figure this out with you, and you give me a lot of good advice. And but I wanted to know more so I did some background seven you did to you found out a lot of cool stuff when we sent it to each other. So let's get a note and basically mean girls what makes people when you hear the term, like Tina Fey movie it's very interesting to see main girls and adult life. Right. And I mean it's such a theme. Growing up for sure with little girls teenage girls. But yeah, it's kinda wanna do another episode with the girls like tickets mom's on who've dealt with it. So maybe we'll do that in the future. But for now. So I put it out there on social media, and I asked for people to write in about stuff. I got a lot of comments. But one thing that stood out was Courtney, who is a podcast from the cult of domesticity. She sent this huge story to me. And then she pointed me to here, the actual audio of it on another podcast, called ignorance was bliss with host Kate, and the two of them talked about it. And so it was up one oh, five of ignorance was bliss. So check that out. And just what I what the takeaway was for me is the depth with which women can hurt each other. You know it's not if feels so different than a guy just coming in and being like. Dude, you suck. And. Yeah. Will you suck to fuck you fuck you and they move on? Right. And it feels kind of like there's a lot more ability to cut off and move on. And just write people off. But with girls, it's like the hurt go, so deep and you ruminate on it and wonder what I what I did, what did I do? What can I do to fix it should I fix it? And just going on and on non about this. So why is that? And so you found an article that directly relates to that, right? Yeah. All right. So the why why does this happen? So we found a couple of TED talks, and we also found New York Times article, and some other kind of blogging things too. But the theory is that it starts, and we'll list all the stuff in our show notes to list all the links to all this background and freedom, but the theories that it starts with, like the socialization of little girls. So when you're little girl, and you're playing with all your friends. Did you hear this part, this was in one of the TED talks that little girls are very keen to level the playing field? So when they play together, they want to all have the same toys, everybody has the same kind of dress or hairstyle or, you know, just making it very even Steven all the girls should be playing nicely together name amount of time. And when that doesn't happen. What the skills that the little girls start to use to level that playing field again. So that continues on until women are grown up girls are grown up women. Right. So it's the feeling of always wanting to level the playing field, which is what makes me think your meditation lady is doing that, right? So you were kind of the one in control you have the power and she was given this position. And so now there's a little bit of this. Well, here's my control. I'm going to turn off the lights and she's turned a level that power backout eight she also is more of the staple at that place.

30:00 - 35:00

So I am the prison coming into her world with this one, one hour thing once a week. So maybe she still asserting herself as being in control of the place, right? With the light switch. Oh, I didn't even think about. I mean it kind of did. But not in that way. That's interesting. Yeah. So a lot of the same kind of undermining stuff, so then it's like let's take it to deeper. Level. So why, why do we need to level the playing field so much? Right. I love I love my what theory do. I love the caveman theory cave. I love going back to my anthropological stupid caveman stuff. I really think I should've studied anthropology. You really references it anyway. So there's more theories out there saying that it's all about women seeing each other as sexual rivals. So as little girls, they all try to play, even Stephen. But then, as soon as puberty comes into the picture and which it's just happening for us. My casper. Good. He said it is a cast beer, beer. And we always case a beer, because it was so funny. Oh, larry. Staff focusing on the boys girls. But yeah, we need to take our sexual rivals out of the picture. So the feeling I guess is that cavemen, right? Women back in the day in this is all evolutionary. Ingrained in our brains. We don't mean to do this, but we they were rivals, right? These women were rivals, we wanted them in to have the babies to keep the species going and also we overtime realize that sex was a resource, right? It's this commodity. It's got this value. This is how we can get what we want. And when a Heidi toddy, little promiscuous cave girl comes in, and she's giving it away for free and flirting with the guys and taken away or man's then she's. She's lowering the price of that resource. Right. So sex is cheap now. And we don't want that, that takes away our need our role. I guess. Right. Well, so, yeah, we tried to take her down, what do we do? We self promote. So then we say we're better. Right. Look at us. We're great. And she's no good. So to take that sexual rival. Does that sum familiar to you? Do you remember any moments of, of? A girl in idea. Remember being really dealing with this right now. If I were to be completely honest, well, I had an old roommate eight years ago, in LA, I had a brief stint where I lived in L A Becton, and she was real flirty with guys. But they were it was in my opinion to stick it drinks or just to get the approval or tension and I would go out with her, and then we'd be stuck talking to this Armenian. Bo. Honk for the rest of the night, because he bought her drink, and no, no knock on our menia. That's a reference to sixteen candles, anyway, he's in when millennial snow sixteen candles, John Hughes was the guy rear its passage throwback. It's hip again. Yeah. Okay, go for it. But. So I saw the I would get really mad about that because I would say he should be appreciating you for your mind in don't sell yourself, just to get a free drink on your looks in her thing. I remember saying one time to me was well, sadly, this is all he got so better. She was like working out a lot. And she said, well, it's all I have to go on in life. So he'd better keep it up. And she says that yeah, so which I thought was really sad to was all about. Like you use your mind make people respect you for your brain. Or your work or something. But that you, it seems like you weren't necessarily like jealous and trying to sneak in there out flirt, her maybe at the base level, because she was really hot. She was much prettier than I was super hot chick. And you're so pretty don't sell yourself. Short, thanks. I love you won't take you down. Anyway, point is I had to check myself because someone else's also met life is really pretty friend. And I was starting to get mad at her not for that. But because she keeps wanting to use shit to put my house anyway. Yeah. The jealousy thing that's totally happened me too. I have had many pretty friends and at some base level, it's kind of, like you wanna be the prettiest girl in the room, you just do. It's built in whatever that is.

35:00 - 40:03

I hate it. I wish it wasn't the way and I always notice girls who it seems not to bother them that they can have the prettiest crew friends in the world and be. Totally confident. And that's something I admire because I think it's still in my brain Mara, hate it. But anyway, at least so then I'm going back to this answer. The pud logical anthropological joins. Joins. Of why we do it the way we do. Okay. So we wanna take our sexual rivals out of the picture. But we do it in this way that people have coined indirect aggression. Okay. And this is the undermining the sabotaging the gossip and we often call it passive aggressive moves things like that. And this is attacking someone in a way that doesn't hurt the attacker. Right. So as a woman, you your, motives aren't detected right? You can kind of do this behind the scenes take someone down and be like, what I don't I don't know who said that. Don't gossip right? Didn't start the thing. It wasn't me. It's all in your head. You know, I don't know what you're talking about yet. You can still really. Takes one out gas lighting exactly. And the reason behind it. They're saying is the attackers do this, so that they don't get into a fight a physical fight. There's no bodily harm. You can't get hurt because. Dotty your shut up. Stop something up for me. You're the one in charge of the babies rate. Yeah. You don't wanna hurt your uterus. You don't wanna get punched in the in the baby maker, the US uterus. Hugh wanna rear this babies. So you have to be in good shape, men do this to and can be passive aggressive, but they can get over it quicker, but women feel shunned and the hang onto this and like, why did she do this to me? How could you do this to me? And it's because in our lizard, brains that you love. We need those women in our little tribal clan to raise the babies. So we can't believe the one of the women that we might need to raise our babies could do this to us and take us out. So we've evolved to be really attuned to, you know, slights like this, like dishes, and, and so resonate with you. Do you see that does that make sense? Well, when I had, yes. Here. Yeah, it makes sense. I mean it gets. This is a whole new thing. I haven't really thought about. Yeah, so fascinating. So it totally makes more sense to me. I don't know like if we're coming into these situations as the new girls and we have something to offer we have more power. Whatever it is. We're getting attention. Who knows then girls wanna take down women. This happens in the workplace a ton. This is what most TED talks about you hear the word bitch being thrown around a lot. Right. Don't say, ladies, don't don't say the word. Bitch. Ask why why do you think that or what is it about it? This lady did research on it in one of the TED talks. And she said the answer was often. I just don't like her or she's just too demanding outspoken, uncompromising. But then she had a good point. She's like, well, isn't that what we want a strong leader to be as denting? And so, and if a man, does that we respect them more rights, uncompromising, kind of strong? Ooh, that's attractive boss. And when a woman does it, why, why would we think right anything different? So. Right, right. The sabotage you could also see the undermining public insinuation public bashing. I mean social media this is where it keeps coming up all these like internet, trolls doing stuff on, on, on Facebook wherever publicly to bring you down. This is happening all the time divulging secrets. So really they're boiling president. Yeah. Yeah. The, the public leader you were. You were with this. Yeah. But yeah, that we women might actually be more responsible for the slow advancement of other women in the workplace. And how horrible is that, of course, was we lifting into their up if we can all band together and get over the shit somehow and bringing up so so how do we do this? Do you know how we should do this while there were suggestions, and in these TED talks? I mean it's to, to what you said. Yeah, like so we need to instead of saying the word bitch, and having that urge you need to check yourself and respect her promote her pattern on the back of your hand.

40:03 - 45:02

Shakes good job. You've you've done it. This is wonderful use positive reinforcement when the other woman is doing something positive, right? If she doesn't think great say, that's awesome. And the whole idea was to also were paving the way, unfortunately, it's taken this long to get to. This place. But by doing that you're creating were positions for more women to be in that company 'cause it's already it's generally. Exactly. We're don't have as many positions. That's why we're competing over that couple CEO jobs for women. Right. We need to support that. So we're creating and leaving legacy from many women after us. So we have to remember that to do it as altruistic cause others. Jerks. I did a quick poll to I put my situation out there in a private group, somewhere on. And I asked what I should do. I explained my whole situation with details. Wow. Sorry, can't do it here, but are not going to publicly bash. Anybody see and seventy five to two hundred people replied? Wow. Seventy five percent of those people said that I need to cut this person out of my life and move on ten percent of the people thought I should confront her, and then the other remaining percentage said ignore or kill her with kindness. So what, what should I do should I do anything in my situation, or what would your reaction be? I think I remember reading something about this where it was to not apologize. You don't say, oh, one of the ladies on the TED talks. But yes, don't go into any the saying, I'm sorry, but, but one of the Ted talk ladies, who we could reference, her said that we women do respond better to softening the front end in the back end, whereas guys deal with direct linkage much better. So you say, hey, we need to. Change the slides and about with women need to say, well, I have an idea, see what you think of this babba, or I'm having an issue, would you mind sitting down, and we could talk about it for a second. And then at the end of your big, you know, unloading than it's thanks so much for listening. I hope we can come to resolution together that kind of thing. Yeah. She called it women speak that we all women's speak. And soften it instead of being so black and white guys are. Yeah, I like that, that made a lot of so I could I could sit down and talk and say, look going forward. You know, here's what I'm seeing. But what do you think in? Okay, asking the question. Okay ally. And I know that sounds weird, but, you know, things like that. Yeah. That sounds counter intuitive because I thought when she was talking about that on this lecture thought she would say, we do soften things too much, and we do apologize to. So you need to be more direct but. It really was to honor the feminine side of us, which is new connect more and be more sensitive about it, but which is really good because I. I had a friend who was really, he's a Mayon, and he's dealing with stuff with his wife and, you know, the feminism, I think the pendulum swinging right now again, which would probably did in the sixties and back in the suffrage movement. All that you have to be strong and try to make a change at the same time. The feminist staff, I guess, is some of the guy friends that have going, oh, it's too much. I can't. Like, maybe a little bit of, like, remember, like you don't have to say, hey, what did you say? What? Okay. I'm not explaining this, well, but it's a Fano. I know what you mean in the life in the heat of the metoo moment. And all the things that are happening all the movements all the women's marches. It's like we're we're going extreme to make a point. Right. Which I think is like probably important though. Yeah. Yeah. Like any demonstration you. We do a big sit in, and hey, look at us, remember, here's the issue, and then we can ease back into. Okay. Now what do we do going forward? So I think, yeah, we're at the height of it, especially in California, especially in southern California. And even our neighborhoods to yes. Yeah. So. But I love I love that. It is coming to the forefront. You know, books like lean in and, you know, I I'm sending Dave all these tape, TED talks and saying here, listening to these for your workplace because, you know, this could help with situation, who knows. Yeah. Some other stuff this lady said to was that you have to do a lot of small favors. If you work with a lot of women, or you're in a situation with a lot of women do little small favors, because she looked at it, as she called him a pile of what was her a chip pile of goodwill bitcoins.

45:02 - 50:03

Like that's how she described it. So that's how we can level the playing field if that's how our brains work is. So if you're a woman in power to, you know, be very nurturing of the relationship with the women that you work with. So that goes into the pile and then doing favors for the not goes into the pile giving them lots of credit where credit is due that goes into the pile. So your evening out that Plainfield by giving. Them power in ways that you can, I guess, which I thought was smart. And I kinda did that I guess, in my situation, I would come into, you know what I was doing and kinda keep my head down and do my thing, and then I leave and I didn't really foster those relationships as well as it could have. So I think it left a lot of space for people to make some Sion's about, you know, it's kind of like high school. It's right. It's the shy girl. Oh, she's a bitch. She stuck up. She's a snob. She thinks she's so great. That's not it, I'm shy. Or I just come and go, I don't need to Chit chat, and I don't know. I don't know. So I saw that. The I reckon could of I could work on that more. Yeah. And anyway, it's really interesting. The bottom line. I think they said to what to do in. This happens is to avoid the mean girl. You know, if you can really pinpoint who is doing it, and who's aggressively this person, avoid that person just be consistent in your. Kindness, right, maintain professionalism, and speak up, only if the situation calls for it, like, if your coworkers taking credit for your work, then you really do need to speak up and say something be assertive, maybe to your boss or whatever and track evidence of it happening in case anything happens, HR wise, and then find support in a situation elsewhere, which also you can poop in their locker lunch. Pronounced fiction. You'll feel so much better really will. That's having I talk like I'm doing all of these things. But now I'm good I need to work on a two. Yeah. I passive aggressively send notes to people in different handwriting. Good idea would be turned those lights on. No, we're going to take down the light. Switch or put a note like facilities says, yeah who more using these lights my brain goes there. The first place it goes is. How do you secretly plan to message given? Aliens or someone else. That's not yourself to directly. Right. Right. And we do things to kind of belittle ourselves not put ourselves in the situation to be sort of right, like, like, in that other article to the girl was realizing she was getting attention from boys. She didn't like that, because she knew the girls would start coming after her. Right. She's getting taller than the other girls. So she started dressing ugly. She started wearing combat boots and men's pants just so that she wouldn't be a target for the other girls. Yeah. So it's almost like by sending the quiet little sneaky notes. You're not putting yourself out there to, you know, really put the target on your head for these women. It's tough man so tough. But we have to do it for the next generation for our girls for my little Charlotte. I need to teach by example in. Figure out the right things to tell her to do and say, yeah, it's tough. But we can do it. We can do it ladies. Yeah. That's right. And don't do for the men. We have to find power nurse cells. This is not that can I say, also that was the whole thing back to all these articles. It was basically, you know really do love yourself. Take care yourself. It seems like so much of this, in the feminist movement or any of these, you know, we talk about it so much all these comes back to self love self care. You hear that all the time? But it really is. I think the more you're happy with, who you are the more you're going to emanate. Good vibe in the world. That's right off, you're dealing with stuff. Get some therapy really look at yourself. Figure it out once you're happy can be happy to others. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. And I think it's a big you know it's a work in progress. I'm working you're working on it. You're my I like this. Thank you. Talking to me about the stuff to me to your my go-to and Betty for sending in your ideas. And we've got to get back to the what about the ladies comment? What's her story? Oh, just to go to the episode. So everybody should go to listen to ignorance was bliss. That's the name of the podcast, go to one of five, and that's when Kate talks to Courtney, who Courtney is with the cult of domesticity another good podcasts. So check them out. Also, I wanted to throw out a couple of our Facebook group, people do our little show.

50:03 - 53:21

It's ready. Do you wanna yeah? Right. This I'm going to scroll and I'm going to pick some people, and we go, let's see. Okay. Wait. Okay. I'm gonna guess I'm going to guess who it is your first one, just I'm going to try to use my psychic abilities just pick. A letter just give me off of it. Okay. John John debuted voice. There you go. Hey, John, thank you for being part of our group. Thanks, john. All right. Let's look at John really quick. John is he likes David Bowie. That's, that's the only hint, I'm gonna give you. All right, next. I'm gonna scroll again giving other another trying to guess the one you're going to land on. I was guessing. Okay. ESP. Ready? Okay. So I just have to land land somewhere. All right. Wait, wait show more after get the whole list. Okay. And I'm scrolling scrolling, scrolling. Marsha Lucy, Lucy. Rendon. J lucy. I love that name. I thought about that for sure that I went last night. Really? Okay. Yeah. Daughter, cute. By the way. Can I say real fast pinky? I saw my Barbara coal. She was in a great show as a part of the L, A women's theatre festival, which was in Culver city last night in Isaac from the love boat. Ted Williams, hosted it and Williams. His name's not Ted Williams. Ted who's is it from the love boat. This just came up on another. Ted ted. Ted Williams baseball guy. Head night. No. That's. Pinky? It was the best. I love and the lady from two to seven was there and I can't remember the name either. Yep. Yeah, that's fun Superfund citing. Anyway, go see Ellie whimsy, your fficials very support ladies. All right. We'll put all these links in our show notes, and please find us aren't mouse. Weans dot com. Also Facebook, everything's mouse in weans, Instagram, Twitter all the places we'd love a rating in follow and please tell your friends, this is how we get out there so we love you. Thank you.


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